claidemore
Senior Airman
Aircraft use fuel.
Hurricane vs.Bf-110
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Clay_Allison
Staff Sergeant
- 1,154
- Dec 24, 2008
I get that, and the discussion was interesting out to half a dozen posts but they had clearly degenerated to the "no they didn't - yes they did" phase of the argument.
Glider
Captain
I can understand your frustration. When I get a chance to check the records at Kew and a working link to the Australian Paper (Kurfurst this one doesn't work either) I will reopen the debate in a thread of its own which I believe is fair to all parties.
Glider
Captain
Kurfurst
Without a link or copy of that Australian Paper which forms the core of your argument I cannot proceed.
I have tried the links given and they don't work, I know that you gave the same information to the Wikipedia people when you questioned this point with them and the links didn't work for them. I know that they contacted the Australian Archives who you assured us have the paper and they couldn't find it either.
So the subject for me is closed unless you can supply something we can all look at.
Without a link or copy of that Australian Paper which forms the core of your argument I cannot proceed.
I have tried the links given and they don't work, I know that you gave the same information to the Wikipedia people when you questioned this point with them and the links didn't work for them. I know that they contacted the Australian Archives who you assured us have the paper and they couldn't find it either.
So the subject for me is closed unless you can supply something we can all look at.
KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
Which link doesn't work?
Glider
Captain
The links that he gave me to find this document
Fuel Supplies to The British Empire And It's Commonwealth; Outlook, Ramifications and Projections For The Prosecution Of The War. /
Australian War Memorial Archives.
Fuel Supplies to The British Empire And It's Commonwealth; Outlook, Ramifications and Projections For The Prosecution Of The War. /
Australian War Memorial Archives.
Kurfürst
Staff Sergeant
Works for me - you have to register to that board though.
One interesting tidbit posted by Neil in this thread:
7./ Air Ministry reserves as of November 1940, 500,000 tons. This = 80 weeks consumption.
8./ At one time 800,000 tons was the target.
AIR 2/2151, AIR 2/3531, AIR 19/254.
From that the consumption works out as 500 000 / 80 = 6250 tons a week or 25 000 tons a month in November. As we recall, in the Q3 of 1940 22 000 tons were issued.. during a three month period.
This seems to agree again well with the Australian source:
'The first Middle East shipment of 100 octane fuel arrived in Portsmouth on 12th August, with a further two deliveries in September and four in October. Although too late to allow widespread conversion for the use of the fuel the deliveries did ensure that from this point on Britain would not be lacking in 100 octane fuel levels. With the newfound supply RAF Fighter Command again embarked upon a Merlin II and III conversion to 100 octane use from late September, finally achieving 100% conversion of it's fighter force by the end of November in 1940.'
So if by the end of November they had all fighters converted to and using 100 octane, it logically follows that in the July-October period roughly 1/3 of the fighters had 100 octane, though I would imagine that in July - October a lot more operational and training sorties were flown than in November.
One interesting tidbit posted by Neil in this thread:
7./ Air Ministry reserves as of November 1940, 500,000 tons. This = 80 weeks consumption.
8./ At one time 800,000 tons was the target.
AIR 2/2151, AIR 2/3531, AIR 19/254.
From that the consumption works out as 500 000 / 80 = 6250 tons a week or 25 000 tons a month in November. As we recall, in the Q3 of 1940 22 000 tons were issued.. during a three month period.
This seems to agree again well with the Australian source:
'The first Middle East shipment of 100 octane fuel arrived in Portsmouth on 12th August, with a further two deliveries in September and four in October. Although too late to allow widespread conversion for the use of the fuel the deliveries did ensure that from this point on Britain would not be lacking in 100 octane fuel levels. With the newfound supply RAF Fighter Command again embarked upon a Merlin II and III conversion to 100 octane use from late September, finally achieving 100% conversion of it's fighter force by the end of November in 1940.'
So if by the end of November they had all fighters converted to and using 100 octane, it logically follows that in the July-October period roughly 1/3 of the fighters had 100 octane, though I would imagine that in July - October a lot more operational and training sorties were flown than in November.
Glider
Captain
I will wait until I get to the paper. In the meantime you may want to awnser some of the questions posed earlier.
PS I like the idea that an 8o week fuel reserve isn't sufficient. What did the Germans have as their standard?
PS I like the idea that an 8o week fuel reserve isn't sufficient. What did the Germans have as their standard?
Kurfürst
Staff Sergeant
If found a curious photograph that may (or may not be) some lead.
It depicts No 602 sqn's Spitfire I, stationed at Drem, in April 1940. The photo's sharp and the angle it was taken from gives good view of the cowling above the fuel tank - on aircraft fueled with 100 octane avgas there was a warning label for the ground crew to fuel the proper type of fuel :
'100 OCTANE - CAPACITY 85 GALLS.'
Its definitively missing from this aircraft, however.
It depicts No 602 sqn's Spitfire I, stationed at Drem, in April 1940. The photo's sharp and the angle it was taken from gives good view of the cowling above the fuel tank - on aircraft fueled with 100 octane avgas there was a warning label for the ground crew to fuel the proper type of fuel :
'100 OCTANE - CAPACITY 85 GALLS.'
Its definitively missing from this aircraft, however.
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Glider
Captain
I am pretty sure that is an earlier photo as I think thats a Gas Warning Panel on the wing and these were removed soon after war was declared.
I admit to not knowing when they were removed but I have never seen a photo of an aircraft from 1940 with them on. Also I have normally seen them on other types such as Ansons, but they were infrequent not a standard fit and didn't last long so photos are uncommon.
If anyone has any more information I would appreciate anything they may have as I don't pretend to know much more than that.
I admit to not knowing when they were removed but I have never seen a photo of an aircraft from 1940 with them on. Also I have normally seen them on other types such as Ansons, but they were infrequent not a standard fit and didn't last long so photos are uncommon.
If anyone has any more information I would appreciate anything they may have as I don't pretend to know much more than that.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
My source or book indicates 100 was not issued until may 1940 but it was in stock and had been since june 1939 , it was also and I haven't seen it mentioned here dyed green . The Merlin engine was designed or modified during construction to be ready to use 100 octane
Air Commodore R Banks was the one that ensured the engines were 100 octane compatable in june 37
Air Commodore R Banks was the one that ensured the engines were 100 octane compatable in june 37
Glider
Captain
I am afraid that the link doesn't work for me the error I am getting is
'Sorry, the link that brought you to this page seems to be out of date or broken.'
As you say the link is working for you can I ask you to send me a copy we can move forward. If you are willing to do this, then I will PM my e'mail address to you.
Wildcat
Major
Glider
Captain
Wildcat
Many Thanks but unfortunately its not the right paper. That said it is interesting and fills a few more holes
Thanks again
Many Thanks but unfortunately its not the right paper. That said it is interesting and fills a few more holes
Thanks again
cherry blossom
Senior Airman
- 515
- Apr 23, 2007
If Bf-110s had been sent to the Middle East in summer 1940, would they have defeated the local opposition? There were a very few Hurricanes. Was there any 100 octane fuel in Egypt ? There were also Gladiators and RN Fairey Fulmars. Bf-110 against Fulmars seems the hardest result to predict.
? There were also Gladiators and RN Fairey Fulmars. Bf-110 against Fulmars seems the hardest result to predict.
Hello Cherry Blossom
as I wrote in message #7 "In North-Africa Hurricane I Trops (it had worse performance than normal Mk I) fought a draw against Bf 110Cs/Ds before Bf 109s arrived there. Usually in those combats the side which saw the enemy first got better results. So IMHO Hurricane Mk I Trop and Bf 110C/D were more or less equal."
III/ZG 26 arrived in NA in late Jan 41. In late summer 40 ZG units were first fully occupied in BoB and then many of them were converted to night fighter units.
Well Bf 110 C/D vs Fulmar, I'd pick 110.
Juha
as I wrote in message #7 "In North-Africa Hurricane I Trops (it had worse performance than normal Mk I) fought a draw against Bf 110Cs/Ds before Bf 109s arrived there. Usually in those combats the side which saw the enemy first got better results. So IMHO Hurricane Mk I Trop and Bf 110C/D were more or less equal."
III/ZG 26 arrived in NA in late Jan 41. In late summer 40 ZG units were first fully occupied in BoB and then many of them were converted to night fighter units.
Well Bf 110 C/D vs Fulmar, I'd pick 110.
Juha
Glider
Captain
Only a small amount. I can tell you that the average Monthly consumption of 100 octane in the Middle East from Sept to Nov 1940 was 100 tons a month. As for stocks the records simply state that in Nov 1940 the reserves of 100 Octane in the Middle East were 8,000 tons.
It should be noted that Before Nov 1940 it was stated as being Not Available. This with the very small consumption figure for November would tend to make me believe that it first started to be used around Oct/Nov 1940.
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
The prevalent model in the BoB was the Bf110-C and I don't think the Hurricane was faster than it although history has shown that that particular performance advantage didn't really help much.
The rear gunner position was pretty ineffectual but it's possible with the Hurricane's slow rate of gain (if it even had one) that it could remain exposed to the rear gunner long enough to be hit somewhere vital, like a coolant line or the radiator.
I think the Bf110 came into its own in the night-fighter role without offering any real advantage over the Hurricane in any other duty that the two types were asked to perform.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
I think that the best assest to have a rear gunner with You is his function as observer. As You know, most air to air kills were bouncing events with no knowledge of the immediate danger for the killed plane.
Therefore, I suspect that the Bf-110 is less likely to be bounced with a rear gunner.
However, during most of the BoB, flying close escort this is not much of a help.
The Bf-110F was a decent plane over Malta, Crete and North Afrika when facing Hurricane and P-40 on the other hand, so I believe she was not a full dog.
Therefore, I suspect that the Bf-110 is less likely to be bounced with a rear gunner.
However, during most of the BoB, flying close escort this is not much of a help.
The Bf-110F was a decent plane over Malta, Crete and North Afrika when facing Hurricane and P-40 on the other hand, so I believe she was not a full dog.
