Japanese air power in a hypotetical invasion of the USSR in 1941

[vikingBerserker]

Today I received Air War Over Khalkhin Gol - The Nomonhan Incident by Kotelnikov because this thread really interested me. On page 65 is states this:

"In general, the Khalkhin Gol battles appeared to be a rehearsal, a preparation for similar war that was to be fought on the Pacific coast and would begin two and a half years later. During the first phase of the combat actions, the Japanese had better equipment and better trained personnel whereas the Soviet empire was often equipped with older aircraft and their pilots lacked combat training and practice. However, as soon as the Soviet Union received their newer fighters and bombers and properly trained aces arrived to pass on their expertise to the others, the situation changed radically. By the end of the conflict, the Japanese could no longer offset their losses, and had to rely on obsolete equipment such as the Ki-4 and Ki-10 biplanes, and the Japanese pilots also became overtired and demoralized, a direct result of flying too many missions with too few hours of rest in-between, and they seemed to loose their inherent 'will-to-win' spirit'. In that situation, a crushing defeat was the lost logical outcome."

 

[Shinpachi]

This post is to show my deep respect to vB's earnest research.
I am not interested in Nomonhan at all and its following what-ifs either.

In any local books about the incident, I have never read any description that JGHQ supported the battle.
They did not only support the battle but ordered Masanobu Tsuji - a Commander of Kanto-gun (Kwantung army) to
withdraw his troops immediately after the first conflict.

Conflicts with Soviet Union were not their immediate concern when they were busy in China.
It was Commander Tsuji's dogma but I guess that the Japanese had been misunderstood that they were
interested in Soviet territory so soon. Total war with Soviet Union might have come but that would not have been
before the victory in China even if there had not been Pearl Harbor.

After ww2, Tsuji answered an interview "I could have won Nomonhan if JGHQ had fully supported me".
Selfish. For your knowledge, He is regarded as "Absolute Evil" in my country.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Very interesting, thank you for your input Shinpachi!

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... Very interesting, thank you for your input Shinpachi!"

MM

 

[Shinpachi]

You are welcome, vB and MM and please take my apology if I may have interrupted your serious/enjoyable discussion but, taking this opportunity, let me recommend you to research about Masanobu Tsuji a little more if you should not know him well.

He is an interesting guy - he never paid respects to his senior officers/commanders and possibly to IJA itself.
He never hesitated to forge his commanders' signature in official documents because he always thought he was justice.
He committed not only Nomonhan but Chinese Massacre in Singapore and Bataan Death March one after another.

In spite of these crimes (plus many others), he survived not only the war and the military tribunal by the allies but became a member of the House of Councillors.
One of the biggest mysteries in Japanese history will be - he is still respected by his hometown people as a celebrity.
I guess they simply don't know what he did during the war but It's very interesting for me to understand our own culture.

Thanks.

 

[bobbysocks]

shinpachi, that answered the question i was going to ask....as to why he is regraded as an "absolute evil" by your people. and dont feel you are interrupting anything here. your opinions are just as important as other. i for one, would like to hear your thoughts on issues like the one we are discussing.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I totally agree, you are as important of a member here as anybody else, I always welcome your opinion - I've learned a lot from it.

 

[Shinpachi]

Thank you very much for your so warm words, bobbysocks and vB!

Mr Ryotaro Shiba -
He once served the Kanto-gun as a tank driver and is also one of the best-seller non-fiction novelists I respect once said
"I collected many data and had many interviews with the survivors to write about the Nomonhan but gave up. Why?
I would die from anger."

 

[parsifal]

Hi Shinpachi


I dont understand why the japanese would view Nomonhan as different to any other battle the Japanese were ibvoled in?

 

[Shinpachi]

Frankly, I am not necessarily understanding well yet how you, westerners, saw/see it but what I was taught at school was that the Nomonhan Incident was nothing but a temporary local collision as neither Soviet Union nor Japan wanted it to extend to total war.

As a common knowledge here since then, the incident was an excess reaction by Kanto-gun wishing to show their distinguished military service. Dai-hon-ei (Japanese GHQ) did not support such their intention from the beginning.

Following is from my own research.
JGHQ ordered Kenkichi Ueda - Commander of Kanto-gun to stop the battle in July but his reply by telegraph was "We continue fighting".
So, JGHQ decided to look the course of event for the time of being.
However, this telegraph was turned out to be a forged one by Masanobu Tsuji after ww2.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Wow! I'm really surprised he was not punished more then he was. IMO the incident is really not that well known, at least in the US. I never really heard about it until being on this board.

 

[Shinpachi]

In my impression too, the older Japanese tried to forget the incident as soon as possible.
When I was a college student, I read a few non-fiction books about the incidnet. I was surprised to know that they had rushed into the battle with no sufficient information about the Soviet forces.

Masanobu Tsuji suddenly disappeared during his trip in Indochina around 1961.
He is thought killed by someone there.

 

[gjs238]

Masanobu Tsuji - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very disturbing.

 

[Shinpachi]

Thanks for your kind followup, gjs238.
Description seems brief but gets to the point well.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Shinpachi San. you may be interested in how I learned about - and became fascinated by - Nomonhan/Gulkin Gol ....

In the '60s when I was a student of history at university I rode a motorcycle - a Matchless 500cc single (derivative of Norton Manx IIFC . It was torquey and LOUD and I used to get tickets for late-night riding on the twisty Ottawa Capital Area roads . I couldn't afford the tickets so I used to Go To Jail (literally) for the overnight required to "pay" the ticket. One Friday night there was a Hungarian fellow in the same cell as I was -- in for some scam or other -- and he had been a Soviet POW in Siberia after being captured on the Eastern Front with German allies. He talked about these Japanese POWs that were in the same camp - different barracks - but same labor camp. I remarked that the Soviets hadn't even engaged Japan at that time and he laughed and said "No, no, 1939" ... different war".

I couldn't believe it and had to know more. It's only being discussed now ...... (better late than never we say in Canada )

MM

 

[Shinpachi]

Wow, MM. That is very interesting information
Kanto-gun did not grasp how many soldiers were captured by the Soviets but, as MIA was about 2,000, they estimated POW would be upto the number.
I hope they could come home together with 'new comers' after ww2.
Thank you very much!

 

[michaelmaltby]

Coox is very sympathetic to Japan on the issue of POWs. Shinpachi .... the Japanese did not hold many Soviets ... in the final days the Soviets took many Japanese (through confusion). When the exchange took place the Soviets dictated that it was to be 1:1 ... and the Soviets never revealed how many more they were holding .... It was a tragic mis-adventure for the Japanese people ...

MM

 

[Shinpachi]

If my memory is correct, Coox once joined a discussion in Japan and could speak very good Japanese.
Thousands of Japanese POWs came home as a keen communist in late 1940s
Boris Nikolayevich Yeltsin apologized about the Soviet's unfair treatment of POWs in ..... 1993 when he visited Japan as President of Russia but I heard POW's hardship was beyond our imagination.

Thank you very much, MM, for your kind and good understanding/sympaty for their tragedy!

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... Thousands of Japanese POWs came home as a keen communist in late 1940s".

That's interesting .... did the Party continue to fascinate them as their lives evolved ... back in Japan?

My wife is Estonian (born in Canada) .... the Soviets deported 1000s of Estos, Balts and other tribes to Siberia for no crime except being what they were ... and in THAT sense their fate was no better or worse than your countrymen POWs. Remember - the Tsar Great Peter built St. Petersburg with slave labour.

New Year's Greetings from Toronto

MM

 

[vikingBerserker]

That's pretty interesting MM.