ju 87 tank aces

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think we really need to get this back on topic...

 

[michaelmaltby]

OK

World War 2 Eagles: Henschel HS-129 in action on the Eastern Front - German newsreel

MM

 

[Jenisch]

How effective was the 129 with the 75mm gun?

 

[Erich]

Gentlemen

remember I said the original posting of mine was MY opinion and I beleive it strongly. am on some pretty foggy cancer medications right now and when I come back to reality I will continue my thoughts. One of the big reasons I hae a problem with the overal claims of Rudel is confirmations, he along with his staffel of Panzerjägers many times were behind Soviet lines popping Soviet armor, from this we do not have confirmtaion from German ground forces whther or not we have a 100 % destroyed or less than 60% due to the fact the Soviets rescued many of sy their own "T-34's", this is also the same case of Il-2 crews claiming thousands of German Panzers behind German lines during late 44-45, the German did the same took remaining damaged goods back to repair workshops.
Another point is the StG or SG 2 war diary. who has it ? is it complete ? hw many typesetters were behind the writer printing so-called kills in pilot Flugbuchs just like the LW fighter pilots both day/night or Allied for that matter ? Has the SG 2 War Diary been put into book form .............. I think it has but . . . . ?

last point before I fade. Rudel through the Deutsche Wochenschau film footage always something for the Families back home was the biggest LW Propaganda toy the Third Reich had through the war. I am NOT trying to deframe the man by saying he he did not fly or did not lose a leg due to action, the man was one of the best Schlacht pilots in the world at the time there is no doubt about this, what I do doubt is the overall claiming involved and it isn't just him in SG 2. this is in response to what I have just typed out.

ok more later.............continue your thoughts Gents and yes this could be a very interesting thread if we do not get accusatory towards one another ...........

 

[Jenisch]

Well, I remember to have read in somewhere that only 60% of the LW aerial claims in the East were true, this was done comparing the claims to the Russians records. In the BoB, there was similar overclaim in both sides. Some of those kills could even had occured, but did not actually resulted in the destruction of the plane. A 109 pilot could have brought down an IL2 for example, but the Russians could have recuperated it.

 

[Shortround6]

A big problem with regards to claims of "kills" on the ground vs claims in the air is that you cannot see something on the ground descend or crash. What you can see is dust, dirt and debris kicked up by the impact of bullets, shells, bombs etc obscuring the target and resembling "smoke". Amount of dust, dirt and debris depends on the type of ground (clay, sand, loam,etc) weather conditions (dry, wet, frozen,etc) and so on. You may see tracers ricochet but that means rounds are hitting, not killing. A tank may stop but is it because the driver cannot see, the engine has stalled, a track is broken or the tank is on fire and soon to be a hulk? And just because fire is observed does not mean the tank is destroyed. Is the tank itself on fire internally or are items (like tarps) externally stowed on fire?

Many vehicles were destroyed by air attack but the possibility of confusion is many times what it was for air to air combat before you even get to deliberate over claiming.

 

[GrauGeist]

A big problem with regards to claims of "kills" on the ground vs claims in the air is that you cannot see something on the ground descend or crash. What you can see is dust, dirt and debris kicked up by the impact of bullets, shells, bombs etc obscuring the target and resembling "smoke". Amount of dust, dirt and debris depends on the type of ground (clay, sand, loam,etc) weather conditions (dry, wet, frozen,etc) and so on. You may see tracers ricochet but that means rounds are hitting, not killing. A tank may stop but is it because the driver cannot see, the engine has stalled, a track is broken or the tank is on fire and soon to be a hulk? And just because fire is observed does not mean the tank is destroyed. Is the tank itself on fire internally or are items (like tarps) externally stowed on fire?

Many vehicles were destroyed by air attack but the possibility of confusion is many times what it was for air to air combat before you even get to deliberate over claiming.

Valid point, but there will be the "after action" report where an accounting has to be made as to why certain ground assets were disabled, destroyed.

Also, the advantage to a Stuka (and some IL-2 types) were that it had a tail-gunner who had a far better view of what just happened in the last pass, than a single crew aircraft (P-47, Fw190, Hs129, etc...) which had to rely on glancing over the shoulder...

 

[VinceReeves]

One way of guessing if Rudel's claims in proportion to other Schlacht pilots is correct, is to ask whether he conducted a disproportionately large number of sorties.

i.e. if he did twice the number of sorties as anyone else, then his claims won't appear so extraordinary.

 

[Juha]

Valid point, but there will be the "after action" report where an accounting has to be made as to why certain ground assets were disabled, destroyed...

The problem was that most of the time when LW A/T planes operated, Germans were in retreat and so Germans didn't have opportunity to closely check the claims. Some extraordinary successes can be verified from Russian sources some cannot.

Juha

 

[CobberKane]

Do you think the fact that Rudel was such an enthusiastic nazi might have had some bearing on the acceptance of his claims and the fact that he was the most decorated German serviceman of the last war? He just have been great for propaganda.

 

[Jenisch]

Do you think the fact that Rudel was such an enthusiastic nazi might have had some bearing on the acceptance of his claims and the fact that he was the most decorated German serviceman of the last war? He just have been great for propaganda.

I'm not saying that Rudel's claims were all true, and you have to provide evidence that he overclaimed on purpuse because politics before suggesting this. Could have been, could have not (actually, I don't know how the confirmation system for ground victories worked in the LW). However, the men definately had a terrible combat flight experience.

 

[Erich]

Gentlemen some of you need to re-read my last posting. the LW hierarchy used Rudel as their prime poster boy..............and then

personally i would rather ignore Rudel and get on to studying and clarifying the careers of other ground attack aces mentioned on Petr's web-site for one. Again even for propaganda purposes StG 2 could use Rudels popularity toi stoke up claims whther justified or not, even with over 2000 missions to his credit this cannot imply he had even over 250 Soviet tanks to his credit. lets remember that not all his so-called kills were done with the tank buster G-1 or G-2 variants but that his staffel was also equipped with the D-2 and D-3 dropping bombs besides performing anti-personell duties.

 

[Jenisch]

Erich, for the public I can understand. But for the LW it would make sense to have an idea of what Rudel was destroying.

 

[jim]

Gentlemen some of you need to re-read my last posting. the LW hierarchy used Rudel as their prime poster boy..............and then

personally i would rather ignore Rudel and get on to studying and clarifying the careers of other ground attack aces mentioned on Petr's web-site for one. Again even for propaganda purposes StG 2 could use Rudels popularity toi stoke up claims whther justified or not, even with over 2000 missions to his credit this cannot imply he had even over 250 Soviet tanks to his credit. lets remember that not all his so-called kills were done with the tank buster G-1 or G-2 variants but that his staffel was also equipped with the D-2 and D-3 dropping bombs besides performing anti-personell duties.

Mr Erich
I asked you EVIDENCES to support the mud you throw at Rudel. You provided none. Only (according to your post) your opinion
So ,according to you, he is guilty of overclaiming until he proves otherwise. I say YOU, have to provide evidence that he is guilty Until then his airforce s opinion counts : 2530 missions , 519 + tanks ,1 battleship,1 cruisr,1 destroyer, 70 landing crafts, 9 air to air victories, hundrend of vehicles and artillery pieces. PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT ALL THESE ARE LIES AND I WILL ACCEPT THAT YOU ARE CORRECT AND I AM WRONG

On the previus pages Rydel was called by members of this forum a Nazi, a warrior of the dark etc
Have you read his memoirs? Do you know his views ? Yes, he remained faithful to his commander till the bitter end. WHY thats a shame for a soldier? Besides that, Hitler was very magnetic as a personality , he fooled millions, Rudel was just one more
Rudel in his book says that if the concentration camps were true, it was a bad thing. I dont agree with many of his views but to easily question his character is not appopriate.
Since i saw ZERO evidences of his "overclaiming" i will provide some evidence that support his story
a) Marat and the other battleships are beyond question. There are photos
b) There are photos with his anniversary missions( 500,1000,1500,2000) celebrations. Of course the dozens of people of his unit could be part of of a massive propaganda trick
c) He lost a leg, and flew again .THERE ARE PHOTOS climbing out of his Ju 87 minus his lower leg. Not bad for a liar
d) He landed 6 times behind enemy lines to save comrades from the soviets. That speaks for his caracter. During the 6th time was unable to take off agai and had to make his famous run behind enemy lines . YOU CANNOT DENY THAT EITHER . During the run his gunner was drowned
e) HE had the BALLS to fly the 250mph Ju87G in 1945in DAYLIGHT . IN 1945!!!! In the year of the supersonic P51s , P47s and La7s. Why would he do that if he was achieving nothing? He would fly these near suicidal missions because he was propagandas favorite boy?
f) There is video of his Ju 87G unit attacking the landing crafts in Crimea
g) Lipfert, Barkhorn, spoke with great admiration for him . Their unit II/JG52 flew many missions escorting Rudel s Stukas .
h) Land commanders were specifically asking his unit support
i) He crashed landed 30 times due ground fire, wounded several times . All very well documentet event
k) a very disciplined officer, an exceptional athlet , a non alcohol drinker .
l) He ignored many times orders to quite combat flying
Can i prove that all 519 tanks were total losses? No. Can i prove that some of the tanks were no repaired? No. Can i prove that did not make some mistakes in tank claiming?No. But i dont have to. The people that throw mud at him HAVE to prove that he overclaimed at over 50%

PS A member wrote that Rudel did not deserves honors because he fought for dark purposes and never admitted it
The soldiers of the american cavalry that murdered the Indian women and children in dozens of thousands , during 19th century , were serving a holy , blessed purpose? However they are considered heroes , in our days by their country men

 

[Erich]

you provide evidence that what he states as truth instead of using outdated sources for your supposed facts............ all you can use is his former comrades. SG 2 was the highest scoring SG unit ....why ? did the historians of the unit fudge a bit too much on scores. ? who was there besides an observer rear gunner to count Rudels kills ? especially when 3 barrel flak was firing up at you advancing or retreating with Soviet/British lend-lease tanks ?

DID I CALL RUDEL A LIAR ------ NO re-read my postings which I have given evidence to your contrary old views, you have not added one single piece of proof in offering defense of the man except old news which everyone knows. Everything I have stated is a very strong plausible statement.

Rudel because of his standing and his leadership could do simply as he pleased this is also the case of high ranking LW fighter and bomber aces as well, would it be possible to add to said scores of these individuals, sure it could and it was done..........why ? to provide added bonus to their unit maybe a prideful thing for the next high decoration ?........it could be.

we have film footage of supposed Rudel tank kills, how do we know for 100 % certain that these are not from other members in his staffel let alone his Panzerstaffel ? what about SG's 1,3 77 ? and yet without any interference we read the two books written by Rudel and accept everything he proposes as complete fact including Günther Justs tritest on the man whom flew a couple of protective flights for the Panzerstaffel in his Fw 190F.

I write this to you Jim knowing full well we are having a communication problem and it appears you re not understanding me fully as to the context I have written. Besides this thread is not about Rudel but about Ju 87 tank aces. Rudel is one of many.

 

[Shortround6]

e) HE had the BALLS to fly the 250mph Ju87G in 1945in DAYLIGHT . IN 1945!!!! In the year of the supersonic P51s , P47s and La7s. Why would he do that if he was achieving nothing? He would fly these near suicidal missions because he was propagandas favorite boy?

P-51s, P-47s and La7s were supersonic?

Certainly puts the Me 262 into perspective doesn't it.

The soldiers of the american cavalry that murdered the Indian women and children in dozens of thousands , during 19th century , were serving a holy , blessed purpose? However they are considered heroes , in our days by their country men

Their status as heros has diminished quite a bit over the years. And two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Jenisch]

And two wrongs do not make a right.

They do not. But let to analyze someone's combat record because moralist bias is not the smartest thing to do. For me, what Rudel thought about politics doesn't matter. The Americans helped to put a dictatorship in my country in the 1960s. Did every time that I heard the name "US" I think about this? No. Practically never. I think the same applies for Rudel - the pilot. If you people want to discuss politics, this is not the adequated place.

 

[CobberKane]

Alright, I can't help myself. Rudel said IF (?) the concentration camps were true? This is evidence of contrition? His lifelong dedication to his leader - a tyrant who orchestrated the genocide of millions (maybe?) is admirable? And we shouldn't question his character? How does the massacre of native Americans (or the equally appalling treatment of Aborigines in my own country) excuse that the nazis did in Germany? Or is evil simply a matter of perspective, as earlier suggested? NAMBLA would probably agree.

Maybe my view lacks sophistication, but I think some things are irredeemably wrong, and nazism is one of them. Rudels war record identifies him as a brave and skilful soldier. His adherrence to the nazi creed throughout his life identify him as a contemptible person
Sorry moderator, I will now definitely and absolutely go away.

 

[GrauGeist]

PS A member wrote that Rudel did not deserves honors because he fought for dark purposes and never admitted it
The soldiers of the american cavalry that murdered the Indian women and children in dozens of thousands , during 19th century , were serving a holy , blessed purpose? However they are considered heroes , in our days by their country men

Easy there, Jim...every nation on earth has at one time or another committed acts that have been anything but noble or civil...that has nothing to do with Stukas or thier crew's performance in combat...

 

[Jenisch]

If you people want to discuss attrocities commited by countries, geez, there's simply too much things for countries like the US, USSR, UK, Germany, etc. Sorry if I offend any patriotic persons here, but the things are like that: Germany lost the war. No matter what you people think, if Germany had won it, the people you call "criminals" (including Rudel) could still been called criminals, but they would be much more discrete, kinda like the remaning butchers from the NKVD today who have lots of medals. Also, if you people want to have moralism, it should start in the countries I cited apart from Germany. However, it won't happen. Simply as that. It's nice to belive a world were there's the "good guys" who always defeat the bad ones and everyone is judge like should be. Unfornately reality is WAY much different, and always was like that.