ju 87 tank aces

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by mike siggins, Feb 21, 2013.

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  1. mike siggins

    mike siggins Member

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    was there any other tank aces like ruddel
     
  2. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    not with his high score though my opinion his count should be cut in half the second ranked Panzer killer does not even come close which should strike up a red flag with less than 200 victories. the last LW in focus covered 99 kill ace Anton Korol of SG 2 Panzerstaffel.

    there are kill counts all over the net if one looks hard enough; Petr Kachas exhaustive site has a page just expressly for this :

    Tank Killers - Panzerjger, Panzerchlachtflieger, Schlachtflieger, Schnellkampflieger, Zerstrerflieger, Jagdflieger
     
  3. jim

    jim Banned

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    Mr Erich
    Any evidence, documents , or something else to back your opinion that Rudel was a lier?
    The fact that he flew far more missons than any other (2530) ,doesnt justify his great score? or you question also his missions claims?
    Do you also doubt that he lost a leg and kept flying? I dont ask about the Marat, he clearly lied. The ship did not sunk. Only half of it exploded and the rest sat on the bottom.
    In our days is trendy to call german war heroes liers . It is called " new , objective,scientific, history review"
    But be careful. If during the review you dont reach the political correct conclusions, you are going to jail (Irving)
     
  4. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Active Member

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    Erich wasn't accusig Rudel of lying.

    Combat is a hectic situation. Add the limitations of human perception and memory and the difficulty of confirmation and actually knowing what happened and its easy to overclaim.

    Not just minor overclaims either, its easily possible to be out by an order of magnitude.

    Take the example of Western Allies fighter bomber claims over Normandy. In the Falaise pocket, fighter bomber pilots claimed 391 kills of tanks and other armoured vehicles. When operational review teams actually looked at the kills, only 33 could be positively identified as being killed by aerial attack. Possibly another 15 could be attributed to air attack, but had been abandoned and set on fire by crews.

    Its not a question of honesty, its a question of perception not matching reality when the observer is under stress.
     
  5. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    jim,

    I don't think it is a matter of calling him a liar. He certainly was very good at what he did, and I too believe that he "killed" far more tanks than anyone did, but I highly doubt that his numbers were that high.

    I think it was more a fact of fudging the actual numbers for propaganda purposes. All sides fudged the numbers a bit for that purpose, and the Germans were no different from anyone else.

    You question anyone that is going to question anything German, but if Rudel was an "Allied Tank Ace", I am sure you would have no problem questioning his kills, only because it would be "Allied Propaganda" in you eyes. Is that not so? Maybe you should try and be a little unbiased as well.

    As I said, I think he did an amazing job at what he did, and I do not question his skills and service to his country, but I bet you could probably shave a bit of his numbers off and chock it up to propaganda padding.
     
  6. CobberKane

    CobberKane Banned

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    I may get myself into trouble for saying this, but Rudel was prime evidence that courage and dedication do not necessarily go hand in hand with nobility of spirit. Like hell he served his country - he served an evil ideology to which he remained an adherrant all his life. Contemporaries like Galland could reasonably claim the soldiers defence, but Rudel was a unapolagetic Nazi. Best be careful of the tempation place him on a pedestal.
     
  7. michaelmaltby

    michaelmaltby Well-Known Member

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    #7 michaelmaltby, Feb 21, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
    "... Rudel was prime evidence that courage and dedication do not necessarily go hand in hand with nobility of spirit. Like hell he served his country - he served an evil ideology to which he remained an adherrant all his life. Contemporaries like Galland could reasonably claim the soldiers defence, but Rudel was a unapolagetic Nazi. Best be careful of the tempation place him on a pedestal."

    .... along with other "sociopaths" [ your word, Cobber ] like Buzz Beuring.....?

    Rudel was the son of a Lutheran minister.... growing up at a time when Godless Communism was threatening Germany. No idle threat BTW.

    I watched a documentary the other night on USAAF P-47 Ace Gabe Gebrowski - a Polish American who hated the Nazi and relished every kill. I thought of YOU ...and your characterization of Beurling ....

    I think you need to publish your "approved", "standards" for warriorhood, my friend.

    MM
     
  8. CobberKane

    CobberKane Banned

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    #8 CobberKane, Feb 21, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2013
    My standards for warriorhood would be much the same as yours, I suspect: courage, skill, dedication and the like. Buerling, Gerbrowski and Rudel would all qualify in spades. I think that when i spoke of Buerling i used the term 'sociopath' and atributed it to his biograher. Either way, its a medical term and not judgemental. I think I also specifically said that I did not presume to judge him for anything he did in the war, and so far as I know there was never a suggestion that any of the three airmen you mentioned were ever involved in war crimes. But of the three only Rudel embraced a philosophy that held those of different races to be subhuman, and only Rudel professed lifelong admiration for a leader who orchestrated the extermination of six million innocent men woman and children. For that, I presume to judge him.
    Shouldn't you, my friend?
     
  9. michaelmaltby

    michaelmaltby Well-Known Member

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    #9 michaelmaltby, Feb 22, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  10. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    And what a crime it is - or should be. Unapologetic Nazis are still scum, whether they are fighter aces, chicken farmers or unemployed youth causing trouble on the street. To believe and accept that ideology when his father was a Lutheran minister says a lot. Sure, Rudel was excellent at what he did, but that isn't necessarily what defines someone's character.
     
  11. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Are you saying that the Nazis should be apologetic, or that all German soldiers should be apologetic? To me there is a difference between the two...
     
  12. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    This thread has gone way off topic from the original question, which was a good one.
     
  13. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    It has, lets try and keep it on topic.

    My question above however, no one needs to fear answering it. We are adults and I respect everyone's opinion.
     
  14. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    I think what nuuman was trying to say was that those Nazi's who still believe that they fought for a righteous cause and refuse to believe they were wrong or apologize for that are scum. That is what I took from his post.

    of course I could be wrong.

    and a topic like this - only because of who Rudel was - will end up where its going.
     
  15. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    #15 nuuumannn, Feb 22, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
    Nope, nailed it, Chris; what I wrote is not open for interpretation; it's pretty clear.

    Anyway, yes, back on topic.
     
  16. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    I don't know, I found it can be interpreted, and I just wanted to know your interpretation...;)
     
  17. CobberKane

    CobberKane Banned

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    There certainly is. Let's face it - young men go to war for much the same reasons everywhere; patriotism, thirst for adventure and glory. I'm sure that the great bulk of German soldiers fought for these reasons, with nazi ideology a vague second. It must be a great sadness to those men when they look back with the benefit of time and realise to what ends their idealism was twisted.
    But there will always be a few Rudels. I can acknowledge his skill, but I don't admire him, anymore than I admire Lee Harvey Oswald for his marksmanship.
    Crimea - fair enough. I'll shut up now.
     
  18. GrauGeist

    GrauGeist Well-Known Member

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    Just a side note here...

    When Erich speaks of anything Luftwaffe...pay attention.

    And if you ask him for "evidence, documents , or something else" then be ready for more "evidence, documents , or something else" than you can imagine...
     
  19. michaelmaltby

    michaelmaltby Well-Known Member

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    #19 michaelmaltby, Feb 23, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
    "..... there will always be a few Rudels. I can acknowledge his skill, but I don't admire him, anymore than I admire Lee Harvey Oswald for his marksmanship."

    Say what ....????????

    Whether you serve on the winning side or the losing side has a large bearing on "apologies" made and apologies "accepted" .

    Also consider this: whether you live and survive the war or die "forever young". Michael Whitman, the Panzer Ace, was very similar to Rudel in upbringing and war record. He was fortunate enough to die in Normandy in his Tiger .... people still put flowers on his grave. If Rudel had died in a similar fashion ... we wouldn't be calling him "scum".

    MM
     
  20. Jenisch

    Jenisch Active Member

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    #20 Jenisch, Feb 23, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
    Define "evil"? I also can say that the governments of the US, Britain, USSR/Russia, Brazil, etc, all did horrible things along history. Kill a jew because he is a jew, like the Germans did, was "wrong". Finance death squads against civilians to desestabilize a country, like the US did in Guatemala, was "wrong". Kill or supress anyone who disagrees with the government, like the USSR did, was also "wrong". Those are things which simply cannot be desconsiderated trying using an argument like "ah, but the Nazis were worst". This is called cynicism, false moralism, and unfornately always was and always will be with mankind. If Rudel belived in the Nazism, he actually had courage to profess his view in the post war world, when do this in his country was even a crime. The popularity of his political view not have nothing to do with the fact that he was one of the best pilots in military aviation history.
     
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