Me-262; suicide role debate

[Velius]

Hello all,

My friend and I are having a debate . He believes that an Me-262 variant was intended for/used as a suicide fighter/bomber (says he got this claim from the history channel) I say this is BS! I've read a lot about the 262's operational history and couldn't find anything of a sort (I could be wrong-but still...a suicide role??). Help me end our little debate!

Thanks!8)

 

[Marcel]

I think he means the V1. There is a version with a canopy and the pilot was supposed to bail out before impact. Obvious not much chance with that bulky Jetengine on the back. I posted some pictures of it somewher on the forum. I'll try to find it.

 

[Negative Creep]

I could be getting the wrong end of the stick but my understanding was no Luftwaffe plane ever went on a suicide mission, e.g with the objective of sacrificing himself to forefill the mission. However some of the attacks had such a low success or chance of return they were effectively suicide attacks (I'm thinking of some of the attacks made on the bridges around the Rhine)

 

[Marcel]

Found the thread about the manned V-1:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/german-suicide-pilots-9047.html

 

[luftwaffemesserschmitt]

there where NO MESSERSCHMITTS 262 BUILD FOR SUICIDE

 

[Velius]

I could be getting the wrong end of the stick but my understanding was no Luftwaffe plane ever went on a suicide mission, e.g with the objective of sacrificing himself to forefill the mission.

-I knew it. Even if they did, they wouldn't choose the Me-262. The manned V-1 that Marcel brought to light here looks much easier and cheaper to build- probably using plenty of non-strategic materials too. The 262 not easy or quickly built. Also it's dual Jumo engines required more resources to build- resources that were quickly running out around WWII's end.

-I also remember seeing somewhere a Japanese built 262, but even their version wasn't intended for suicide.

there where NO MESSERSCHMITTS 262 BUILD FOR SUICIDE

-Thank you! Those are my words exactly to my friend!

I think he means the V1. There is a version with a canopy and the pilot was supposed to bail out before impact. Obvious not much chance with that bulky Jetengine on the back. I posted some pictures of it somewher on the forum. I'll try to find it.

Thanks for the thread link Marcel. Wasn't another name for that a Fiesler 103? I'm not sure if those were two names for the same thing but to my understanding the V-1 was a missile while the F1-103 was a piloted missile (I guess the names could be interchangeable- after all the design on both looks exactly the same except one has a canopy)

 

[ccheese]

There was an episode on The History Channel about using bf-109's to
intentionally ram the bombers. The trick was to use the wing to slice off
one of the verticle tails of the B-24. The German opinion was the wing
would remain intact, and the Liberator would go into a spin. Some of the
German pilots who did this were interviewed. Never heard of using a 262
for a suicide mission. The German aviators were not THAT fanatic !

Charles

 

[Marcel]

Thanks for the thread link Marcel. Wasn't another name for that a Fiesler 103? I'm not sure if those were two names for the same thing but to my understanding the V-1 was a missile while the F1-103 was a piloted missile (I guess the names could be interchangeable- after all the design on both looks exactly the same except one has a canopy)

My pleasure,
AFAIK it was known as the "Fi 103 A-1 "Reichenberg IV"

 

[SoD Stitch]

There was an episode on The History Channel about using bf-109's to
intentionally ram the bombers. The trick was to use the wing to slice off
one of the verticle tails of the B-24. The German opinion was the wing
would remain intact, and the Liberator would go into a spin. Some of the
German pilots who did this were interviewed. Never heard of using a 262
for a suicide mission. The German aviators were not THAT fanatic !

Charles

Yes, Sonderkommando Elbe was a special unit formed toward the end of the War with the mission of ramming American bombers attacking the Fatherland; however, unlike the Japanese, the pilots were not expected to die for their country, but to bail out of their planes just before impact. They only managed to complete one mission, on April 7th, 1945, destroying only eight US bombers, while losing 15 Me 109's in the process.

 

[Erich]

according to my friend Fritz M. interviewed for that silly show and it really was too short and crap, they did not even let the German pilots finish their stories and two of the guys were cut off.

anyway the 109's were mostly shot down by escorts. The Sondekommando was a total joke and the pilots that volunteered for it knew the outcome..........nothing would change the Reich would be pounded to oblivion. JG 7 and it's 262's were to provide high top cover but they took off and engaged B-17 formations on their own being successful in the op.

 

[Velius]

There was an episode on The History Channel about using bf-109's to
intentionally ram the bombers. The trick was to use the wing to slice off
one of the verticle tails of the B-24. The German opinion was the wing
would remain intact, and the Liberator would go into a spin. Some of the
German pilots who did this were interviewed. Never heard of using a 262
for a suicide mission. The German aviators were not THAT fanatic !

Charles

That must've been the episode he saw. I don't have cable so unfortunatley, I didn't see such an episode. I wonder where he got the 262 from??

Thanks everyone for all your information! Now I must do my part and show my hard headed friend this thread and tell him "I told ya so"

8)

 

[Erich]

as I said JG 7 was to provide high air cover for the Bf 109's, but they did not. The jets were included as part of the inventory for the mission though they in truth had nothing to do with the operation except their own involvement with US heavies

 

[Graeme]

Not a suicide aircraft as such, but it sounds suicidal!






Zeppelin "Rammer" Luft '46 entry

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

And the plane was supposed to fly through the enemy bomber unscathed?

I don't know.

 

[magnocain]

And the plane was supposed to fly through the enemy bomber unscathed?

Unscathed enough for the pilot to bail out...

 

[luftwaffemesserschmitt]

hmm with heavy armourplates and enough protection it should do it..

 

[SoD Stitch]

hmm with heavy armourplates and enough protection it should do it..

That's what the Sturmbock 190's were for, but they never rammed anything.

 

[Velius]

I can't picture the Zeppelin Rammer actually working.

It sounds like it could work only if (and a big "if") it hits a thin-structured part of an aircraft like the rudder illustrated in the picture. Any hit elsewhere and at the wrong angle might throw the rammer into an uncontrollable spin, if not destroy it.

 

[Velius]

The member "Grampa" posted a thread with these videos that support this thread.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation-videos/gearmen-kamikaze-12293.html#post332403

 

[barkhorn45]

accoding to 8th airfoce records they lost 8 aircraft that day"a large percentage due to collisions"they contributed this to inexperianced pilots.Shows they did'nt realize at the time that they were engaged by a unit whose purpose was to ram them!