Flyboy2
Senior Airman
Ok so I'm just a little curious to see everybody else's opinion. What where some great planes that should have entered service but didn't, and why would they have been so good?
Mistakes in Aviation
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Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
On the Luftwaffe side, there can be good arguments for the He 100/112, the Do 335, the Ju 390, the Me 264, the Ju 488 and the BV 155 come to mind.
DonL
Banned
One of the biggest mistakes of the Luftwaffe was the FW 187!
Because it was a true multirole plane; the fastet fighter till early 1943, a long range fighter and an very good nightfigher till 1943.
It could have buillt as single or twin seater and perhaps it had solved the problem of the Luftwaffe at high altidude fights between 1943 and 1944.
Because it was a true multirole plane; the fastet fighter till early 1943, a long range fighter and an very good nightfigher till 1943.
It could have buillt as single or twin seater and perhaps it had solved the problem of the Luftwaffe at high altidude fights between 1943 and 1944.
B-17engineer
Colonel
Me-390, but can this be from any era?
SoD Stitch
Banned
Along that same line of thinking, the Go 229 would certainly have been a wunderkraft, assuming they didn't encounter any stability issues with it; the design was far ahead of it's time, but I can't help thinking there would have been directional stability problems since it had no vertical surfaces.
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- #7
Flyboy2
Senior Airman
I am defienatly in agreement about the Fw 187. But maybe its a good thing it didn't enter service, I wouldn't want any of our pilots going up against it.
DonL
Banned
We had a big discussion about the FW 187 in a german Forum; for all guys who understand german can go to this link: Die Focke - Wulf FW 187 Falke
Our discussion was on two points: When make it sense for the Fw 187 to enter production and so on service and is it possible for an evolution FW 187 to solve the problems of the Luftwaffe at high altitudes fights betweenn 1943 - 1944.
For point 1, our agreement was that the FW 187 enter production after BoB cause of the weakening of the BF 110. So it could enter service at the end of 1941.
For point 2 we had calculated a FW 187 with two DB 605 as a pure Fighter at the basis of the FW 187 V6 flight and the data sheets of the FW 187 in comparison with the BF 110.
FW 187 1942 calculated:
engines: two Daimler-Benz DB 601A each with 1.100 PS
weights: 6.000 kg (full loaded)
wing surface area: 197 kg/m²
calculated Vmax: 650km/h
armament: four 7,92 mm-MG 17 and two 20 mm-MG FF/M
FW 187 1943 calculated:
engines: two Daimler-Benz DB 605A each with 1.475 PS
weights: 6.500 kg (full loaded)
wing surface area: 214 kg/m²
calculated Vmax: 725 km/h (at 7500m)
armament: four 7,92 mm-MG 17 and two 20 mm-MG FF/M
Our discussion was on two points: When make it sense for the Fw 187 to enter production and so on service and is it possible for an evolution FW 187 to solve the problems of the Luftwaffe at high altitudes fights betweenn 1943 - 1944.
For point 1, our agreement was that the FW 187 enter production after BoB cause of the weakening of the BF 110. So it could enter service at the end of 1941.
For point 2 we had calculated a FW 187 with two DB 605 as a pure Fighter at the basis of the FW 187 V6 flight and the data sheets of the FW 187 in comparison with the BF 110.
FW 187 1942 calculated:
engines: two Daimler-Benz DB 601A each with 1.100 PS
weights: 6.000 kg (full loaded)
wing surface area: 197 kg/m²
calculated Vmax: 650km/h
armament: four 7,92 mm-MG 17 and two 20 mm-MG FF/M
FW 187 1943 calculated:
engines: two Daimler-Benz DB 605A each with 1.475 PS
weights: 6.500 kg (full loaded)
wing surface area: 214 kg/m²
calculated Vmax: 725 km/h (at 7500m)
armament: four 7,92 mm-MG 17 and two 20 mm-MG FF/M
Glider
Captain
For the British I think the MB V was a missed chance. It was designed, tested, accepted and ready for production, but the orders were not placed.
For the Germans I also go for the FW187
For British Mistakes from a different angle. Why did we waste so many resources building such useless aircraft as the Both, Albermarle, Defiant, Roc and Blenhiem V. Its hard to think of any other country who wasted so much effort.
For the Germans I also go for the FW187
For British Mistakes from a different angle. Why did we waste so many resources building such useless aircraft as the Both, Albermarle, Defiant, Roc and Blenhiem V. Its hard to think of any other country who wasted so much effort.
Was your calculation of the DB601A-engined Fw 187 based on 1100PS or on 990PS ? If on 1100PS then it's wrong as this power was only to be used for take-off and only for one minute. 990PS is the real take-off and Emergency power of this engine, comparable to the 1475PS of the 605A.
Better recalculate the speed figures maybe using the improved DB601AA (1175PS for one minute, 1050PS for 3-5 minutes).
VMax of the 605-engines version sounds a bit off as it's too high. Bf 109 with the same engine had their max speed at about 6500m, no idea why a Fw 187 with the same engine should have max speed at 2km above rated altitude.
Better recalculate the speed figures maybe using the improved DB601AA (1175PS for one minute, 1050PS for 3-5 minutes).
VMax of the 605-engines version sounds a bit off as it's too high. Bf 109 with the same engine had their max speed at about 6500m, no idea why a Fw 187 with the same engine should have max speed at 2km above rated altitude.
DonL
Banned
@ Denniss
your statement about the DB 601A isn't accurate.
The DB 600 without fuel injection had an output performance of 990 PS, the DB 601A with fuel injection had an output performance of 1100 PS and the DB 601N had an output performance of 1300 PS.
We have calculated the Vmax of the evolution FW 187 1943 as a high altitude fighter with evolution air cooler and optimized for high altitudes.
The best outputperformance (Volldruckhöhe) of the DB 605 was 7200m for the ME 109G, so the 725km/h Vmax was a realistic value.
your statement about the DB 601A isn't accurate.
The DB 600 without fuel injection had an output performance of 990 PS, the DB 601A with fuel injection had an output performance of 1100 PS and the DB 601N had an output performance of 1300 PS.
We have calculated the Vmax of the evolution FW 187 1943 as a high altitude fighter with evolution air cooler and optimized for high altitudes.
The best outputperformance (Volldruckhöhe) of the DB 605 was 7200m for the ME 109G, so the 725km/h Vmax was a realistic value.
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- #12
Flyboy2
Senior Airman
I defienatly agree about the MB 5! That would have kicked the Germans where it hurt!
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
The He 280... Could likely have been in service eralier than the 262, though stillinferior ovrall. (even earlier if converted to except 590 kp HeS-6 -most powerful engines from '39 'till HeS-30, improoved HeS-8, and 004A in late '41- large diameter engine would be mounted mid-wing ala Meteor)
The HeS-30 is another missed opertunity in its self. For an overview: Heinkel HeS 30 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And the HeS-8 probably shouldn't have been canceled either.
The He 100 was good too. (469 mph max in testing)
Iv'e read through it and, while amazingly advance and very foresightful of Lockheed, the L133 just wasn't practical or possible within 10 years of it's design. The engines were also prooved to be too advanced and problematic, even by the early 1950's. By that time other engine designs were beating the L-1000 in thrust weight and size for the same class (ie J34) and with a much simpler design, albeit at a somewhat lower fuel efficiency. On a side note: the XJ-37 was built and tested and still exists, currently residing at Planes of Fame in Chino no less!
Forget about the longer range of the Fw 187 or He 100: How about just configuring drop tanks for the Bf 109E's for the BoB!
A good site on this kind of stuff: Hot tip aircraft page
Also there's the Westland Whirlwind, substitute Merlins early on and it might have even been ready by the BoB! And make an excellent interceptor. (note that early Merlins weren't much larger or heavier than the Whirwind's Peregrines) With increased fuel capacity and plumbing for drop tanks it could have made a good escort fighter as well.
An improoved Whirlwind vs. a proper Fw 187 (single seat with DB 601 engines) would have been a sight to see!
I also wonder if the Fw 187 could have used Jumo 211 engines, not too much larger or heavier than the 601, and with more power (generally). Though the lack of pressurized cooling on most models limited high alt performance. But it wouldn't cut into the engine supply for the 109 or He 100 like the Bf 110 did, though it would cut in on bomber engines. (albeit the Jumo 211 was cheaper and in greater supply)
Most of this has been discussed before on the "what aircraft (any side) would you develop further" and "what plane do you whish had sawservice" threads, but it's nice to see a new topic on it, and with a fresh introductory question as well.
The HeS-30 is another missed opertunity in its self. For an overview: Heinkel HeS 30 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And the HeS-8 probably shouldn't have been canceled either.
The He 100 was good too. (469 mph max in testing)
Iv'e read through it and, while amazingly advance and very foresightful of Lockheed, the L133 just wasn't practical or possible within 10 years of it's design. The engines were also prooved to be too advanced and problematic, even by the early 1950's. By that time other engine designs were beating the L-1000 in thrust weight and size for the same class (ie J34) and with a much simpler design, albeit at a somewhat lower fuel efficiency. On a side note: the XJ-37 was built and tested and still exists, currently residing at Planes of Fame in Chino no less!
Forget about the longer range of the Fw 187 or He 100: How about just configuring drop tanks for the Bf 109E's for the BoB!
A good site on this kind of stuff: Hot tip aircraft page
Also there's the Westland Whirlwind, substitute Merlins early on and it might have even been ready by the BoB! And make an excellent interceptor. (note that early Merlins weren't much larger or heavier than the Whirwind's Peregrines) With increased fuel capacity and plumbing for drop tanks it could have made a good escort fighter as well.
An improoved Whirlwind vs. a proper Fw 187 (single seat with DB 601 engines) would have been a sight to see!
I also wonder if the Fw 187 could have used Jumo 211 engines, not too much larger or heavier than the 601, and with more power (generally). Though the lack of pressurized cooling on most models limited high alt performance. But it wouldn't cut into the engine supply for the 109 or He 100 like the Bf 110 did, though it would cut in on bomber engines. (albeit the Jumo 211 was cheaper and in greater supply)
Most of this has been discussed before on the "what aircraft (any side) would you develop further" and "what plane do you whish had sawservice" threads, but it's nice to see a new topic on it, and with a fresh introductory question as well.
red admiral
Senior Airman
- 479
- Mar 24, 2005
Lockheed's L133 just isn't practical, mainly due the engines, which never actually worked and most likely wouldn't work with today's technology.
The Martin-Baker MB.5 was too late, in 1944 it was a real dog, like Martin's other planes. The good comments on performance come from tests done in 1946 when all the problems were fixed.
The Fw-187 was too small for an extra crewman and would really need to be a bit bigger to comfortably accommodate the pilot.
Supermarine 324 and 325 twin engined fighters would have been awesome, 450mph in 1940 with heavy armament and nice large wings to cope with later weight increases.
Cancelling the high altitude Napier Sabre variants was a bit of a mistake, as such it limited the Tempest to low altitude regimes (where it reigned supreme) but with around 2400hp available at 32,000ft would have had excellent performance. Then with later versions with uprated boost, giving 3750hp continuous and 5500hp maximum at 45lb boost (though that last one is post-war)
The Martin-Baker MB.5 was too late, in 1944 it was a real dog, like Martin's other planes. The good comments on performance come from tests done in 1946 when all the problems were fixed.
The Fw-187 was too small for an extra crewman and would really need to be a bit bigger to comfortably accommodate the pilot.
Supermarine 324 and 325 twin engined fighters would have been awesome, 450mph in 1940 with heavy armament and nice large wings to cope with later weight increases.
Cancelling the high altitude Napier Sabre variants was a bit of a mistake, as such it limited the Tempest to low altitude regimes (where it reigned supreme) but with around 2400hp available at 32,000ft would have had excellent performance. Then with later versions with uprated boost, giving 3750hp continuous and 5500hp maximum at 45lb boost (though that last one is post-war)
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- #15
Flyboy2
Senior Airman
Just curious,
How did the He-100/112 stack up against the Me-109?
How did the He-100/112 stack up against the Me-109?
SoD Stitch
Banned
IIRC, my understanding is it was in many ways a superior aircraft to the Bf 109, but Heinkel rubbed somebody's feathers the wrong way (Milch? Udet?) and lost the contract to Willy, partly for political reasons (another instance of Nazi Germany's "crony favoritism").
Glider
Captain
If the MB5 was a dog then I would like to know how good an aircraft would have to be to be considered half decent.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
The only disadvantage of the He 100 to the 109 would have been turning ability and room for growth in weight, bith caused by the fairly small wing area and lack of LE slats. The smaller frame of the He 100 would hve offered better power loading though which would compensate somewhat. It would likely have been more than a match for the P-51 as well.
Feom what I've read Heinkel was known for not liking the Nazi regime and was particularly unhappy about loosing his Jewish workers and engineers. The RLM was also unhapy with Heinkel's "playing around" with private fighter projects as well as his jet and rocket programs when he was supposed to be focusing on development of the He 177 bomber and other bomber developments. (the 177 its self being flawed by the RLM mistakes) On a similar note Hans Von Ohain didn't much like the Nizis either and left his flying club after it came uner Nazi control.
I doubt Udet would have opposed the He 100 or Fw 187 as he didn't seem to share the same bias as many others.
And though Focke Wulf wasn't as antagonized as Heinkel, they still seemed to be marginalized by Messersmitt in the RLM's eyes.
Feom what I've read Heinkel was known for not liking the Nazi regime and was particularly unhappy about loosing his Jewish workers and engineers. The RLM was also unhapy with Heinkel's "playing around" with private fighter projects as well as his jet and rocket programs when he was supposed to be focusing on development of the He 177 bomber and other bomber developments. (the 177 its self being flawed by the RLM mistakes) On a similar note Hans Von Ohain didn't much like the Nizis either and left his flying club after it came uner Nazi control.
I doubt Udet would have opposed the He 100 or Fw 187 as he didn't seem to share the same bias as many others.
And though Focke Wulf wasn't as antagonized as Heinkel, they still seemed to be marginalized by Messersmitt in the RLM's eyes.
It would still be roomier than the Bf 109 though, and it wasn't designed as a destroyer, but a single seat twin engined fighter, a contemproary of the P-38 and Whirlwind (albeit the P-38 was designed more as an interceptor) It could have made a good heavy fighter too, with plenty of room for nose armament, but it shouldn't have been a destroyer. A good miltirole fighter: interceptor, escort, fighter-bomber, support, but not a 2-seat destroyer! (and it would have been about as difficult to make a nightfighter as the P-38 due to lack of room for radar or radar operator)
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Agree on the MB.5
Another iron and interesting fact is that the first county to take a serious interest in gas turbine aircraft engines was also the last of the major powers in WWII to test one and the last to fly one.
The Soviets had been seriously working on turbojet and turboprop designs since the 1920's and in the early 30's thy received government funding to construct prototypes. The first Lyulka jet design was suposed to be ready along with a testbed (likely similar to the Gloster G.40 or He 178 ) by the end of 1940. But when Germany invaded the turboprop project and team was captured and Lyulka and the turbojet team were forced to evacuate. This set them back nearly 3 years and it wasn't untill early 1943 that their engine ran. (albeit somewhat improoved) By the time they evacuated Lyulka's team had tested several centrifugal compressor layouts and a 2-stage axial compressor with 1.25 compression per stage along with combustion and turbine testing. (all designed to run at fairly low temp to allow the use of available materials with production in mind)
See: Russian Aviation Page: Russian Jet Technology 1937-45
And also a nice article on the L133 and L-1000: Lockheed L-133 by Tom Conte (Scratchbuilt 1/72)
Another iron and interesting fact is that the first county to take a serious interest in gas turbine aircraft engines was also the last of the major powers in WWII to test one and the last to fly one.
The Soviets had been seriously working on turbojet and turboprop designs since the 1920's and in the early 30's thy received government funding to construct prototypes. The first Lyulka jet design was suposed to be ready along with a testbed (likely similar to the Gloster G.40 or He 178 ) by the end of 1940. But when Germany invaded the turboprop project and team was captured and Lyulka and the turbojet team were forced to evacuate. This set them back nearly 3 years and it wasn't untill early 1943 that their engine ran. (albeit somewhat improoved) By the time they evacuated Lyulka's team had tested several centrifugal compressor layouts and a 2-stage axial compressor with 1.25 compression per stage along with combustion and turbine testing. (all designed to run at fairly low temp to allow the use of available materials with production in mind)
See: Russian Aviation Page: Russian Jet Technology 1937-45
And also a nice article on the L133 and L-1000: Lockheed L-133 by Tom Conte (Scratchbuilt 1/72)
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- #20
Flyboy2
Senior Airman
Yeah I saw a documentary about the Russian design ideas and they defienatly where far ahead of everybody elses aircraft designs in the 1930's. They flew that huge airplane over the North Pole and landed it in America. If Stalin didn't hate aircraft so much, who knows what they would have done.
The German's defienatly did not have their head screwed on right when it came to some aerospace projects. Especially those by Heinkel. I'm thinking of the He-219 right now. That was possibly the best night fighter of the war.
The German's defienatly did not have their head screwed on right when it came to some aerospace projects. Especially those by Heinkel. I'm thinking of the He-219 right now. That was possibly the best night fighter of the war.
