Moral objections on warfare.

AMEN!

Good thought, trackend. I have often thought that veterans should form their own political party. While there are liberal and conservative veterans, they would at least know that the military option is the last one and once unleashed, they should be allowed to fight as they should without intervention. I'm not talking about a fair fight either, I am talking about an overwhelming force. Get it done, then bring them home. Veterans know that the decision to send troops into the danger zone will cost lives and will think long and hard before doing it.

That's so true Evan. Churchill was a great politician but nearly every time he poked his nose into military affairs he F... it up from Gallipoli in WW1 too Norway in WW2. If I wanted a kids party organizing I wouldn't ask the SAS to provide the entertainment likewise if I get some nutters take hostages I ain't going to send for Cocoa the bleeding clown.
As you rightly say if you,re going to do it then do it don't piss about
there's no such thing as half a war.

A Comment about Robert McNamara's bio:

"Robert S. McNamara is trying to salvage how 'history' is going to remember him. Unfortunately (for him) he's going to be judged on the facts. McNamara and his 'wiz kids' were an unmitigated disaster.They didn't understand war. Didn't understand people. Foreign cultures. Instead of observing reality and adjusting policy according to what worked and what didn't, they tried to force reality to fit their computer projections."

What a Steaming Twonk he turned out to be but I bet he had a comfortable life style

Udet said:

War against China?

It is likely to happen. After all, wars are not waged for the fun of killing. Killing is just a mean never the ultimate goal.

The ultimate goal of war is economic-political power.

In view of the economic growth of China and the overall financial position of other powers, USA or course included, it could happen.


The USA and allies, for instance, did not invade Irak to implement democracy. It is a tale no one on earth buys, but let´s not forget politicians know how to chump on garbage -they are proffesionals at it-. They will continue to repeat their rubbish for as many times possible to convert lies into truth.

I hardly watch any TV, however, and by a mere coincidence I happened to be near a screen showing Sir Tony "Trafalgar Square Punk" Blair being interviewed. With a great smile on his face, his reponse to some question regarding the aftermath of the invasion of Irak was:

"Let´s not forget that present-day Iraki citizens have the absolute freedom of will and liberty to take the paper, chose their preferred politician and to deposit their vote in the box."

Yes, sure that might be happening now in Irak.

Still, this individual, the expression on his face lacked any authenticity. He sounded so untrue, so false and so pretending i found the view completely obscene.

Sure. Sure Mr. Blair had countless sleepless nights worrying on the absence of democracy in Irak.

Scene: At Mr. Blair´s residence, some night well before the invasion of Irak:

His wife, noticing some noise in the bedroom, opens lazy eyes, reaches out for her husband, but he is not in the bed. Turning the lights on, she sees her husband standing still looking through the window.
"Dear? It is 3 a.m. and you are not asleep? What is wrong?"
Worried Tony responds:
"Just to have the view in my mind of those poor people of Irak... they can not vote for God´s sake! I will never rest until i see them voting in freedom".

Laughable or upsetting, or both.


Now a China-USA military clash...let´s hope it never happens.
I ve been told most people in the USA army, when the Vietnam conflict was at its initial stages called the Vietnamese "rice chumping apes wearing black pijamas". In the end, the USA army fled Vietnam with the tail between the legs.

China is the kind of regime where high casualties would not be that relevant. The USA, loyal to a long tradition, does not tolerate casualties nowhere near the "moderate" range.

China has a large army, their soldiers are well trained and equipped: jets, heavy tanks, artillery, missiles, etc.

The sole similarity present-day Chinese soldiers could share with those Vietnamese who fought against the USA in the 60s would be the absolute fierceness in combat and utter commitment to annihilate the enemy.

You might immediately burst out to point out the fact Chinese military technology can be still well behind the USA´s.

I would not be so sure on that particular issue. China has been sending "armies" or fleets of spies to roll across the earth; most countries have them, either first world or developing nations, to steal all kinds of "know-how" on virtually every matter you can think of. The mission is to gather, record and steal all classified information they can get their hands on.

And they have been trained to make things happen. Trained to get their hands on almost anything.

Military technology, of course, is a relevant target of those fleets of Chinese spies rolling across the earth.

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I am not even going to get started on this one.

evengilder said:

Good thought, trackend. I have often thought that veterans should form their own political party. While there are liberal and conservative veterans, they would at least know that the military option is the last one and once unleashed, they should be allowed to fight as they should without intervention. I'm not talking about a fair fight either, I am talking about an overwhelming force. Get it done, then bring them home. Veterans know that the decision to send troops into the danger zone will cost lives and will think long and hard before doing it.

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As a veteran I completely agree.

FLYBOYJ said:

Thank you Track! - Its a shame when politicians of any nation ask soldiers to fight, put almost impossible restrictions on them, and then have the same soldiers take the wrath of the media or from other "critics" for not completing the mission.

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And this is exactly what we experience in Iraq. They want us to fight a war with our hands behind our backs, and then all we here about is the bad stuff that happens.

"I don't object to its being called "McNamara's war." I think it is a very important war and I am pleased to be identified with it and do whatever I can to win it."
Robert S. McNamara, 1966

I put a great majority of the Viet Nam Tragedy on this man!

I don't think I could do modern soldiering Adler. My mate whose not that long back from the Gulf said one minute you're involved with a fire fight the next you,re expected to be Mr Plod the policeman. My switch would never have worked like that I could police an area or I could get stuck in but not both in the same place.

FBJ and Adler, i highly recommend a book for your guys. "About Face" by David Hackworth. He is a highly decorated soldier who calls it like it was with Vietnam. He is also acctive today as a reporter that is looking after the troops. One hell of a guy.

Sounds Great!

Will deffinatly check it out. Sounds like a decent reporter if he looks after us.

He does. He also has a website at www.hackworth.com. He writes a weekly column that usually hits the mark. The folks in the pentagon hate him because he usually has the straight skinny and pulls no punches.

Good man!

MORE JAPANESE/ CHINESE INFORMATION!

JAKARTA, Indonesia - Japan's prime minister apologized Friday for his country's World War II aggression in Asia in a bid to defuse tensions with regional rival China, but a Chinese diplomat dismissed the remarks, saying "actions are more important" than words.

Just hours before Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi apologized, a Cabinet minister and more than 80 Japanese lawmakers made a controversial visit to a Tokyo shrine dedicated to Japan's war dead. China's Foreign Ministry criticized the visits, expressing "strong dissatisfaction over the negative actions of some Japanese politicians."

A spokesman for Chinese nationalist groups that helped to mobilize three weekends of sometimes-violent anti-Japanese protests in China said the communist state would not be satisfied until Koizumi stopped visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, which also honors Japan's executed war criminals.

Koizumi's expression of "deep remorse" at a summit of Asian and African leaders in Jakarta did not go beyond what Japanese leaders previously have said.

But its delivery at the international gathering clearly was aimed at easing an escalating row with China over Tokyo's handling of its wartime atrocities and its bid for a permanent seat on the U.N. Security Council.

Relations between the two Asian powers have plunged in recent weeks to a three-decade low.

"In the past Japan through its colonial rule and aggression caused tremendous damage and suffering for the people of many countries, particularly those of Asian nations," Koizumi said at the summit's opening ceremony. "Japan squarely faces these facts of history in a spirit of humility."

China's Foreign Ministry did not immediately respond to requests for comment on Koizumi's remarks.

However, China's ambassador to South Korea, Li Bin, said: "Of course, words are important. But I believe actions are more important."

Lu Yunfei, a spokesman for Chinese nationalist groups, said Koizumi's comments did not go far enough.

"It's a sign of some progress, since this is the first time a Japanese leader has offered this kind of statement in an international forum," Lu said. "Still, this is far, far from enough."

Lu criticized Koizumi for failing to mention China by name and for what he called ambiguous language in the apology.

"China was the biggest victim of Japan's invasion. The suffering was immense," he said.

About 80 Parliament members made the pilgrimage to the shrine, which honors Japan's 2.5 million dead from World War II. The group visited in observance of an annual spring festival. Internal Affairs and Communications Minister Taro Aso, a Cabinet minister, visited the shrine alone later.


In response, China's Foreign Ministry called on Japan to take actions that are "more conducive to improving and developing Sino-Japanese relations," citing the "current severe situation."


Koizumi said he was hoping for a one-on-one meeting with Chinese President Hu Jintao in Jakarta on Saturday, Japan's Kyodo news agency reported. But China says it's still considering the proposal.


Massive anti-Japanese protests erupted in major Chinese cities this month after Tokyo approved a new history textbook that critics say whitewashes Japan's wartime atrocities, including mass sex slavery and germ warfare. The protesters also have targeted Tokyo's Security Council bid.

Tensions also are fueled by disputes over gas-drilling in disputed waters and Koizumi's repeated visits to the Yasukuni Shrine.

A Japanese Foreign Ministry spokesman said in an interview in Jakarta that Koizumi's speech clearly shows Japan's regret, a core point he was hoping to convey to the delegates.

"We are not just rich people hanging around giving out money. We are doing this because our whole attitude is based on remorse," Akira Chiba said. Tokyo is one of the world's largest donor's of foreign aid. "I do hope that the Chinese will hear this message, too."

He said Japan still expects "a formal apology for what happened ... because it's against international law what they did." The demonstrators have smashed windows of Japan's diplomatic missions and damaged Japanese restaurants.

The Chinese government insists that Japan is to blame for the troubles.

"It's not bad for us (if China does not apologize). It's bad for them. It's in the interest of both sides, not just our side," Chiba said.

Also on Friday, Singapore accused Japan of straining relations with its neighbors by rendering a "strange interpretation" of World War II in history textbooks. Tokyo has approved a textbook that critics say plays down Japan's wartime atrocities, including mass sex slavery and germ warfare.

The issue "has strained relations between Japan and its neighbors, in particular China and Korea. This is not in the interest of the entire region," Singapore's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said in a statement.

Japan's Kyodo News Agency said Koizumi's remarks were based on a 1995 speech made by Tomiichi Murayama, the prime minister at the time, marking the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II.

This one is deffinatly going to be interesting how it panns out. As for the Japanese cabinate going to the memorial for Japanese soldiers of WW2. As long as they were going to pay respect to the fallen I see no problem with that. No fallen soldier should be forgotten, well unless they were convicted of atrocities and then in my opinion they are monsters not soldiers. However if the visit was meant for other reasons then the cabinet was wrong and is not respecting them but dishonoring them.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

This one is deffinatly going to be interesting how it panns out. As for the Japanese cabinate going to the memorial for Japanese soldiers of WW2. As long as they were going to pay respect to the fallen I see no problem with that. No fallen soldier should be forgotten, well unless they were convicted of atrocities and then in my opinion they are monsters not soldiers. However if the visit was meant for other reasons then the cabinet was wrong and is not respecting them but dishonoring them.

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You're on the money my friend!

I actually find that a lot of the communist countries or former ones such as the Soviet Union actually made some of the best monuments to there soldiers. The best though that I have found is the WW2 monument in Washington DC. It is wonderful. Oh well I went off topic there for a second, sorry about that.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I actually find that a lot of the communist countries or former ones such as the Soviet Union actually made some of the best monuments to there soldiers.

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I've noticed that too. They never seem to forget their living veterans either.

That is true, unless they are killing them in the war themselves!

Have the Japanese ever made any formal apologies to any Western countries? I know that here alot of ex POW's have been trying to get compensation from the Japanese Government for years but have gotten no-where. I'm pretty sure a few have also tried to get it from companies such as Mitsubishi who used and abused them for slave labour, but again have gotten zip.