Most Influential Ship?

[renrich]

In picking a cruiser I think one has to consider one of the pre war US CAs that were practically all the US had in the way of surface ships to fight the war in the Pacific in 1942 and early 1943.. My choice is San Francisco, CA38. Her battle honors include Pearl Harbor, Guadalcanal-Tulagi,, Cape Esperance, Guadalcanal Battle, Attu, Gilbert Islands, Kwajalein, Truk Raid, Hollandia, Marianas, Leyte, Iwo, Okinawa, Pacific raids. Whew! She was the flagship of the US TF at Cape Esperance and at The Battle of Guadalcanal where she was heavily damaged. Both were American victories and reversed the tide against the IJN. At the Battle of Guadalcanal her guns undoubtedly played a major role in the damage to the Hiei, the IJN BB that was so badly damaged in that night gun battle that she succumbed easily to air attack the next day. I don't believe any other cruiser had as much impact on the outcome of the war although there are several other US cruisers that come close.

 

[Divplaksnis]

I think Nazi U-bots were most influential ships because

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I think Nazi U-bots were most influential ships because

Because...

 

[mkloby]

Because...

 

[renrich]

The thread was started to name the most influential individual ship such as HMS....... or USS.........

 

[Divplaksnis]

Because...

Because they almost destroyed UK defense by sinking ally support ships. Their used Wolf pack strategy was excellent.

 

[Freebird]

Because they almost destroyed UK defense by sinking all support ships. Their used Wolf pack strategy was excellent.

Yes, they were a huge threat in WWII

 

[Lucky13]

Wasn't the Gato class a better submarine then the type VII?

Gato: She formed the basis of the largest class of submarines ever built, counting the Balao Tench, which weren't substantially different.
Growler: Skipper, Howard W. Gilmore, earned the Sub Force's first combat Medal of Honor for ordering his boat to dive after he was wounded 7 February 1943 by fire from provision ship Hayasaki and was unable to reach the hatch in time.
Grunion: Mannert L. Abele earned the Sub Force's first Navy Cross, when his boat vanished off Kiska in July 1942.
Darter: She was the only U.S. boat in the Pacific War lost to grounding.
Trigger: She became famous in Edward L. "Ned" Beach's book Submarine!
Wahoo: She was commanded by the Sub Force's most famous skipper, Dudley W. "Mush" Morton, was the first U.S. sub into the Sea of Japan. She was sunk exiting in 1943 after a second excursion.
Cobia:[/b[ She sank Japanese tank reinforcements which were en route to Iwo Jima.
Flasher: She was the top-scoring U.S. boat of the war, with 100,231 tons officially credited to her by the Joint Army-Navy Assessment Committee JANAC.
Harder: She was commanded by Samuel D. Dealey, the only submariner of the war (perhaps the only one ever) to sink five enemy destroyers, four in a single patrol.
Mingo: She was lent to the Japanese after the war, under the name Kuroshio.
Cavalla: She sunk the carrier Shōkaku. Shōkaku had participated in the attack on Pearl Harbor.

USS Gato (SS-212), December 1941.

 

[Ramirezzz]

all big american CNVs like USS Enterprise or Yorktown. Nowadays you won't find any small carriers in their fleet

 

[HerrKaleut]

I stand to be corrected but surely, if you are saying influential ship, you mean in the way that Dreadnaught was influential,not because of the achievements of her commander as have been quoted. (e.g. would Wahoo have been so successful had Morton not had her, Midway was a US victory through the "gods of war" not the fact that such and such carriers were there.) A british carrier was influential in the area of armoured flight decks over wooden, a german battleship influenced a whole naval strategy just by laying at anchor, and the Hood influenced the whole world in the demise of the Battlecruiser. Thats what I understand by influential

 

[renrich]

If you look at the original question, it refers to a specific, individual ship. I will stick to the USS Enterprise. Without her and her air group, the Pacific War would have been much different.

 

[comiso90]

If you look at the original question, it refers to a specific, individual ship. I will stick to the USS Enterprise. Without her and her air group, the Pacific War would have been much different.

I agree...

The worth of the Enterprise cannot be overstated... One my barometers of the worth of a ship, airplane or almost anything else is to remove it from the equation and postulate on the ramifications...

If the Enterprise were sunk at early Midway, I believe the Japanese would have occupied Pearl Harbor.

If the cross channel dash on D-Day was tough, can you imagine the obstacles to re-take Pearl? The US would have hunkered into defense mode while it built enough carriers to return.

Perhaps Northern Australia and mainland Alaska would have been occupied.

No other ship in these posts come close... the discussion needs to be about #2..

 

[fly boy]

The aircraft carrier. And specifically, as syscom3 stated, the Essex Class.

TO

i have to agree on that one

 

[diddyriddick]

I'm gonna go with Renrich on this one. Just wish I'da had his eloquence.

Enterprise.

 

[Amsel]

I would vote for the Big "E" due to her record. I would also mention the USS Wahoo( SS-238 ) for the amount of tonnage sunk in the least amount of time; a total of 93,281 tons sunk and 30,880 damaged in only 25 patrol days. I am also impressed with the Dace and the Darter for sinking the Atago and seriously damaging the Takao when these two subs initiated the Battle of Suriago Strait.

 

[syscom3]

But the Essex class carriers is the culmination of all of the years of prewar theory and experiences, with the 1942 experiences of the Pacific battles adopted into their designs.

These carriers had good speed, could absorb brutal damage, had a huge air wing capacity, had decent defensive firepower, and finally, had a decent and effective CIC to orchestrate offensive and defensive operations.

And their design was perfect from a ship builders perspective. Regardless of the US industrial might, these were easy ships to build and get operational for their size.

When you consider that these were the epitome of what an aircraft carrier should look like, and operate as, there should be no other conclusion. These were the most influential ships of the second world war.

Even if one were to give credit to the Brits for innovations, it was a case of not enough to influence the battle.

 

[parsifal]

I would nominate the HMS Breconshire, the supply ship that made it through to Malta during that islands darkest hour. Pounded to the point of sinking, with most of her crew dead or woulnded, her Captain and the convoy escorts assisting her, refused to give up.

I attach the following history of this most gallant and influential ships in history. perhaps not the the most impressive, but her survival can be said to hav influecned the outcome of a campaign....

BRECONSHIRE (1) was built in 1939 by Taikoo Dk Engineering Co. at Hong Kong with a tonnage of 9776grt, a length of 507ft, a beam of 66ft 3 in and a service speed of 18 knots. On completion she was acquired by the Admiralty and converted into an Auxiliary Supply Ship and commissioned as HMS Breconshire. On 15th April she ran into Malta supported by Admiral Cunningham's naval strength and an enemy attack on this fleet enable a number of empty merchantmen to to make a break for Alexandria. Between 21st-26th July she participated in 'Operation Substance' when a convoy of six ships fought through to Malta allowing the Breconshire and six empty cargo ships to escape eastwards. In all, HMS Breconshire made more trips to Malta than any other merchantman. Ensuring the survival of Malta was vital and every effort was made to keep the island supplied, so much so, that on 17th December 1941 three cruisers and fourteen destroyers were deployed to ensure that the Breconshire got through. However, in March 1942, under the command of Capt. Colin Hutchinson RN, she was to fight her last battle. She left Alexandria on 20th March, as commodore ship, with a cargo mainly consisting of high explosive and kerosene, accompanied by Clan Campbell (Clan Line), Pampas (Buries Marks) and the Talabot (Wilhelmsen). The next day, by which time the Clan Campbell was straggling, the convoy was met by Admiral Vian on HMS Cleopatra, three other cruiser and 16 destroyers. Aircraft provided overhead cover and three submarines were patrolling to the north. On the 22nd there were several ineffective attacks by Italian Savoia bombers but HM submarine P 36 reported heavy Italian surface fleet steaming to intercept. At 13.30 an aircraft dropped a line of flares to guide the Italian force towards the convoy and with them began the Battle of Sirte Gulf. Six destroyers and the anti-aircraft cruiser HMS Carlisle were delegated to protect the convoy while the remainder of the escort steamed off to meet the oncoming Italians. Although a smoke screen was laid to screen the merchantmen bombing had started by mid-afternoon and was continuous with all the ships being straddled but, fortunately, not hit. By late-afternoon the Italian cruiser Littorio, three cruisers and twelve destroyers arrived on the scene and the convoy was ordered to alter course, southward, into the Sirte Gulf. Laying a smoke screen Vian's fleet went after the Italians whose objective was to get round the smoke to get a clear shot at the convoy. As they broke through Vian's cruiser fired a broadside of torpedoes which caused the Italians to turn away. The manoeuvre was repeated but after another broadside was fired the Italians withdrew and the battle was over. However, by now the merchantmen were so far south that they could not possibly reach Malta, some 240 miles away, under the cover of darkness. As the main escort no longer had the fuel or ammunition to provide effective cover Vian ordered the merchantmen to break convoy and head for Grand Harbour, Valetta at full speed. The Breconshire set off at 17 knots accompanied by the destroyers HMS Southwold and HMS Beaufort and the A.A. cruiser Carlisle and by daybreak they were only 20 miles from home. But enemy aircraft were already circling waiting to attack. Air support was requested but nothing was available to cover the ships as they approached Malta. On 23rd March a single Junkers 88 commenced the first attack which was followed by Me 109 fighter bombers who scored three hits. The Ju 88's returned at regular intervals scoring more hits by which time Breconshire was lying dead in the water, 10 miles from Malta. The cruiser, HMS Penelope left Valetta Harbour to take the ship in tow but twenty feet waves caused the tow to part leaving her to drift towards the protective minefields. By noon she managed to anchor short of the minefields and two cruiser and four destroyers gave her anti-aircraft protection. During the following night the anchors dragged and the mines were close enough to be clearly visible from the ship. HMS Southwold managed to get a tow line aboard but in doing so hit a mine and broke her back finally sinking later that day. The air attacks recommenced but the Breconshire was not hit and by midnight the weather abated sufficiently to allow HM tugs Ancient and Robust to reach the stricken ship. At 2.00 am on the 25th she was under tow but a strong wind prevented entry into Grand Harbour so it was decided to put her in Marsaxlokk Bay. As the ship turned the swell caused her to veer madly. Breconshire signalled the Ancient 'I have a strong tendency to come up into wind', to which Ancient replied 'You're telling me!' At 10.00 Breconshire entered the bay and moored to No.1 buoy and her exhausted crew were taken off for some well earned rest. The tanker HMS Plumleaf was delegated to go alongside and take off the kerosene and fuel oil but this could not be done until the tanks were freed and opened. While this was being done HMS Plumleaf was bombed and beached. The Luftwaffe, being determined to destroy the three merchantmen who made it, increased their air attacks with the Pampas and the Talabot being rendered unrecognisable and Breconshire being repeatedly dive bombed. On 26th March hasty repairs were commenced so that she could be towed into Grand Harbour. The air attacks resumed and at 18.30 a lone Ju 88 scored four direct hits which caused a fire that was quickly brought under control. Miraculously the ship did not explode but she was settling and listing to port and by sunset the port rail was under water. At daybreak on the 27th she was still afloat but fires had again broken out, abaft the No.3 hold was a blazing inferno and ammunition was beginning to explode. The Captain and fourteen officers went out to her by launch but attempts to scuttle her fail because of the intensive heat. Moments after Capt. Hutchinson slid off the ship she rolled on her side and then capsized. In April 1954 she was raised and, upside down, towed to Trieste where, after examination to see if repair was possible, she was broken up.

 

[Njaco]

Parsifal, I've always admired how the USS 'Ohio' got through to Malta during Operation Pedistal.

 

[parsifal]

wqually impressive and incredibly brave....and probably every bit as important to the allied war effort in my opinion. The point is this....warships of the enterprise or Bismark or Illustrious genre are important, and their crews outstandingly brave....but in the end it is the lowly merchantman that is th reason for all that firepower.....and these guys dont have 100 aircraft, or 15" guns or 10 inches of plate stell or 30 knots of speed to protect them. All they had was their courage and tenacity and seamanship to get them through.

 

[syscom3]

parsifal and njaco ..... but what influence did these ships have on operations or warship design?

Aside from getting to Malta at a critical time, there was nothing unique about them. But, perhaps instead of thinking about warships, what about the following:

EC2-S-C1 class victory ships. Couldn't have won the war without them. Literally.

T2 Tanker (actually a type T2-SE-A1). Without POL's that could be transported quickly and in quantity, the allied war effort is still born. And without them, the USN would not have perfected the at sea replenishment that accelerated the US advance through the Pacific.

How about the ungainly LST? Bring your tanks, heavy eqmt and other vehicles right up on the beach!