Mustang crashes into crowd at Reno
- Thread starter phas3e
- Start date
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seesul
Senior Master Sergeant
Missing elevator trim tab before the crash Last photo of Galloping Ghost shows left elevator trim tab trouble - Reno Aviation | Examiner.com
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
And that would be the case in the FAA "APPROVED" maintenance program. Sure, the general maintenance of the aircraft would be dictated by the manufacturer as applicable (certainly you're not going to do any maintenance on the armament system because more than likely it won't be there!) but in the end the FAA may add to the general requirement and ultimately APPROVE that program. In my mind they (The FAA) should share the responsibility should a maintenance action on such an aircraft turns out to be inadequate or misses something that may care a catastrophic failure.
First part of your comment, probably as the Mustang operators in the Unlimiteds are spending most of the year tweaking and modifying their aircraft. As far as the Tech Inspection, I was one last year in my class and I can tell you that for the most part you're only looking for the obvious and of course ensuring all the paperwork is in place.
I doubt the FAA will issue an AD on an experimental aircraft over several remote incidences over the course of several years (time, money and interest). that caused little or no incident (except as noted). What should have been issued IMO was a SAIB on racing Mustangs only, and that the Mustang racing community could have induced this on their own without initial FAA intervention, but it would have been a matter of these operators to collectively recognize that they may have a problem and ensure that problem is corrected on their individual aircraft before that go race.
Me too. Several years ago I fulfilled a life long dream and actually participated in the races as a crew chief. I agree about the scars, I still hurt over the 2007 loss of Brad Morehouse who I was supposed to work for that weekend. I've had ups and downs at Reno, I hope we all can climb out of this down.
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jimh
Senior Airman
I won't beat this into the ground but here is a video leading up to and just after the departure from the course. After the pitch up Jimmy is no longer visible in the cockpit and the tailwheel is extended. Onboard telemetry has been unofficially released with a spike at 22.6g's sliding back to 11g's. anyway, it's a new perspective that will hopefully dispell the fake photo question. this video does not show impact...which is good.
jim
jim
ww2restorer
Airman 1st Class
- 239
- May 28, 2011
Having returned home from Reno and reading this trash, thought I would set some things straight.Yes I am involved and all week have been working with FAA, NSTB RARA. I had worked with Jimmy on his aircraft, as an engineer for the cooling system.What I can tell you within the limits of the investigation is A) The photo's are genuine, those of you that think they are photo shopped, you were not at reno when the photographers handed over there cameria's crying because they knew what photos they had captured. B) the tail wheel, is extended because the g loading overtook the hydraulic lock pressure forcing the gear out.The mains have a mechanical lock that held up through the G's.The G loadings as quoted above spiked at 22.6g's and was substained for a few seconds at 11 g's. C) the pilot (RIP Jimmy) three events happened here, he is at high probablity unconcious due to the 22.6 g loading, even the top military pilots cannot substain this.The second event is that looking at the inverted photo you can clearly see his silver/white helmet forward in the cockpit, near the glearsheild. Under the G loading his seat harness probably broke or was unlocked (many pilots unlocked there harness so the could move better in the cockpit to see other aircraft).Finally if any of you have ever been inside the office of a P51, the control stick sits up about 8 to 10 inch above the legs, with the G loads it is possible that the Pilot may have been impaled on the stick, supporting the photos of why the controls all appear to be neutral.
[Remainder of this post has been deleted - Restorer, your post was informative, but your emotions associated with this most tragic event does not warrant a first post which insults moderators and senior forum members. We wish you well in your grieving and offer sincere condolences to those affected by this uncommon accident.]
[Remainder of this post has been deleted - Restorer, your post was informative, but your emotions associated with this most tragic event does not warrant a first post which insults moderators and senior forum members. We wish you well in your grieving and offer sincere condolences to those affected by this uncommon accident.]
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johnbr
2nd Lieutenant
Thanks for the info on this very sad event.
razor1uk
Staff Sergeant
Indeed it is, continued thought with and for all involved in this tragic mishap.
Mustang nut
Banned
- 200
- Jun 14, 2011
I read this post before it was edited, the parts deleted were in my opinion valid, and an obvious product at anger at obvious ignorance of the facts. Moderators and senior members frequently make barbed comments against obvious ignorance. I sugest you re instate the post in its original form as the comments were valid and extremely thought provoking. For my part I had many thoughts and read many posts and articles on this subject but the figure of 22.6G changes everything. May the poor guy and other victims of the accident rest in eternal peace without unseemly points scoring. Let the post stand in its original form and then let it be. TY WW2 restorer for a valuble and informed insight.
To give such an obviously well informed poster, even if it is his first post a ban and an insulting and derogatory signature picture reflects very badly on the moderators and senior members the edit was supposed to be protecting, it is quite simply disgraceful. I am in UK and have no connection with the USA racing scene but I Imagine it is a very close community, I suggest strongly Flyboy is consulted on this matter, his reputation in his community could be damaged.
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FLYBOYJ consistently uses inappropriate language and name calling in his posts, and he's never called on it because he is a moderator. This is unacceptable. Moderators should NEVER be allowed, much less sanctioned, to engage in rude behavior that would get a regular member banned immediately.
So in this case, in post after post, one moderator posited a patently absurd conspiracy theory, another moderator rushed to his defense with several rude and insulting posts, and finally a third moderator asked, "Why are you spending so much time trying to prove that the images are real?" The underlying question of: Why are two moderators going out of their way to libel a professional newspaper photographer having not even been even considered by any of the moderators....
Did FLYBOYJ apologize for his rude and insulting remarks? No. Do I expect that he will? No. Will I be banned for this post? Probably.
Moss
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MikeGazdik
Senior Airman
I don't post often, I check in to read things posted by others frequently. There is more I can learn here than I can usually contribute, so thats good with me.
I think all maybe can use my post here as a neutral observer, if you will. I don't know the entire history of others that post, or many of thier backgrounds.
What I plainly see here are passionate people, speaking about that which they love. Many are simply overwhelmed with what happened. Obviously many of the posters are deeply, deeply connected with the events at Reno, and the sport of air racing. Some obviously connected with the pilot.
In any argument, when passion is involved, things are often said that are regretted.
I suggest all involve step back and relax if they have to, before posting. If something angers you, dont post a response until you have time to cool down and realy think about what you want or need to say.
The amount of knowledge on this board is incredible, and I would hate to see a tragic event such as this cause people to leave or be forced out.
Eventually, what happened will be known. Some hypothesis will be wrong, others will be correct. Thats par for the course in any investigation.
I think all maybe can use my post here as a neutral observer, if you will. I don't know the entire history of others that post, or many of thier backgrounds.
What I plainly see here are passionate people, speaking about that which they love. Many are simply overwhelmed with what happened. Obviously many of the posters are deeply, deeply connected with the events at Reno, and the sport of air racing. Some obviously connected with the pilot.
In any argument, when passion is involved, things are often said that are regretted.
I suggest all involve step back and relax if they have to, before posting. If something angers you, dont post a response until you have time to cool down and realy think about what you want or need to say.
The amount of knowledge on this board is incredible, and I would hate to see a tragic event such as this cause people to leave or be forced out.
Eventually, what happened will be known. Some hypothesis will be wrong, others will be correct. Thats par for the course in any investigation.
razor1uk
Staff Sergeant
Sage words...
evangilder
"Shooter"
Patently absurd conspiracy theory? I have analyzed the photos and stand by my original assertion. It does not change the fact that several people are dead and the event was tragic. The aviation community and the families of the dead deserve the truth. Libeling professional press photographer? Hardly! I am calling BS on ONE photo that shows evidence of doctoring. You can disagree if you like but you are hardly in a position to judge others on their choice of words when you have referred to me as "libelous", "absurd conspiracy theorist" among other things. Disagree if you like, but this might be the time to just drop it. I have my beliefs, you have yours. We can leave it at that.
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Fancy all this name calling at such a tragic time. It does look good chaps....
John
John
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Any further posts where emotional rants or insults are levied at moderators or members will result in the guilty party taking some time at the beach.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Not Probably, definitely
I agree with one of the above posters. We all very passionate about the subject of aviation and it is easy for tempers to flare from time to time. I am sure that most members would agree on that, and in the end we are all friends who share the same passion for aviation.
I too would recommend that everyone take a step back and try and relax (I know I should do this from time to time as well, I am as passionate about things as everyone is, and sometimes get aggravated to the say the least...
). Lets not let things like this ruin this forum or the relationships that some of us have.
I would also suggest that if people have problems with one another, use the PM function. Problems can be aired out, and it always is better than airing it out in public. Also do not flame and insult other members of the forum (that includes moderators, admin, senior members and new members), it is not tolerated. Yes we moderators sometimes get heated as well and say things that are inappropriate. We are human as well and sometimes our emotions get the better of us. We however will always stand together (especially in public, I think you can understand that). We have a section where we can speak freely amongst each other that is not viewable by the forum membership. We discuss, critic and tell each other what is good and what is not good in our own behavior. We have from time to time, even removed moderating staff because of actions detrimental to the forum.
In short, if you have a problem with a moderator bring it to his or her attention in a PM and things can be worked out. Don't air it out in public. As stated above that goes for any forum member when you have a problem with them as well.
I too would recommend that everyone take a step back and try and relax (I know I should do this from time to time as well, I am as passionate about things as everyone is, and sometimes get aggravated to the say the least...
). Lets not let things like this ruin this forum or the relationships that some of us have. I would also suggest that if people have problems with one another, use the PM function. Problems can be aired out, and it always is better than airing it out in public. Also do not flame and insult other members of the forum (that includes moderators, admin, senior members and new members), it is not tolerated. Yes we moderators sometimes get heated as well and say things that are inappropriate. We are human as well and sometimes our emotions get the better of us. We however will always stand together (especially in public, I think you can understand that). We have a section where we can speak freely amongst each other that is not viewable by the forum membership. We discuss, critic and tell each other what is good and what is not good in our own behavior. We have from time to time, even removed moderating staff because of actions detrimental to the forum.
In short, if you have a problem with a moderator bring it to his or her attention in a PM and things can be worked out. Don't air it out in public. As stated above that goes for any forum member when you have a problem with them as well.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Mosshorn had the right to remain silent. But he did not have the ability.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I did not know or see the rest of this post so I don't know what was said, but with that if one of the other moderators had a beef with him, so be it.
razor1uk
Staff Sergeant
It must be that time of year, Winters coming and the brooding builds, why are people getting so agitated and contining to rub each other the wrong way, in This thread. I have noticed similar heating of other forums around the net...
It does equal disrespect dishonour to all invoilved, irrepsective of their 'sides'/opinions, even more so towards the reason and being of this topic,while ignoring the rememberance of those injured, maimed mentally /or phsyically and those whom perished.
I'd say I am truely dis-gusted at the flaming and counter flaming still ongoing from those conducting it, within this community, I am beggining to lose respect for some members.
It does equal disrespect dishonour to all invoilved, irrepsective of their 'sides'/opinions, even more so towards the reason and being of this topic,while ignoring the rememberance of those injured, maimed mentally /or phsyically and those whom perished.
I'd say I am truely dis-gusted at the flaming and counter flaming still ongoing from those conducting it, within this community, I am beggining to lose respect for some members.
GregP
Major
I am moved by Mr. van Gilder's comments on the picture of the Galloping Ghost diving almost vertically. It matches almost exactly other pictures from the starboard side. The pic in question, if genuine, was obviously taken from the pit area, probably near the corner pit nearest the impact point, accounting for the pic being from the port side.
Pixelation issues aside, the remarks about the background reflected in the spinner give me pause. If the spinner were a flat plate, Mr. van Gilder's remarks would be spot on. But the spinner is a shiny cone-shape. Not quite a pointy cone but rounded off at the front in the classic P-51 spinner shape.
Regardless of the shape of the background, the image you get off a shiny spinner will be along the axis of reflection of the spinner. Once you reach just shy of 45° angle from the spinner surface-to-center, the image is coming from 90° away. Even if the plane is diving vertically into the ground (almost the case here), the image will reflect along the axis of the spinner's outside curve.
This is very simple to demonstrate. Go get a nice shiny spinner at any Hobby Shop and try it.
Mr. van Gilder may or may not be correct in his assertion that the pic is photoshopped. I respect his assertion while disagreeing with it and will not argue or discuss that point in this post. I just think the reflection cannot have been a horizontal line across the spinner, even if the aircraft really IS vertical, since the shiny surface is curved in only one direction … toward the spinner end point center. We've all seen the funhouse mirrors in which you can see yourself as tall and skinny or short and fat. The only thing that counts is the angle of the reflecting surface to the observing eye. In the case of a spinner, the reflection can be no other shape than along the reflection surface of the cone.
Go get one and try it!
As for Mr. van Gilder, I really like his pictures and have for some time now. Keep it up EVG! If Mr. van Gilder was at Reno, maybe he has some pics of his own?
I didn't get my own camera up to catch it because I was too busy watching the event itself. I was in section 3 near the bottom and at one point, the Ghost was aimed directly at us all. Needless to say, we all got a big adrenaline shot. By the time I would have been able to raise my camera, acquire, focus and shoot, the event would have been over.
Pixelation issues aside, the remarks about the background reflected in the spinner give me pause. If the spinner were a flat plate, Mr. van Gilder's remarks would be spot on. But the spinner is a shiny cone-shape. Not quite a pointy cone but rounded off at the front in the classic P-51 spinner shape.
Regardless of the shape of the background, the image you get off a shiny spinner will be along the axis of reflection of the spinner. Once you reach just shy of 45° angle from the spinner surface-to-center, the image is coming from 90° away. Even if the plane is diving vertically into the ground (almost the case here), the image will reflect along the axis of the spinner's outside curve.
This is very simple to demonstrate. Go get a nice shiny spinner at any Hobby Shop and try it.
Mr. van Gilder may or may not be correct in his assertion that the pic is photoshopped. I respect his assertion while disagreeing with it and will not argue or discuss that point in this post. I just think the reflection cannot have been a horizontal line across the spinner, even if the aircraft really IS vertical, since the shiny surface is curved in only one direction … toward the spinner end point center. We've all seen the funhouse mirrors in which you can see yourself as tall and skinny or short and fat. The only thing that counts is the angle of the reflecting surface to the observing eye. In the case of a spinner, the reflection can be no other shape than along the reflection surface of the cone.
Go get one and try it!
As for Mr. van Gilder, I really like his pictures and have for some time now. Keep it up EVG! If Mr. van Gilder was at Reno, maybe he has some pics of his own?
I didn't get my own camera up to catch it because I was too busy watching the event itself. I was in section 3 near the bottom and at one point, the Ghost was aimed directly at us all. Needless to say, we all got a big adrenaline shot. By the time I would have been able to raise my camera, acquire, focus and shoot, the event would have been over.
