My New IL2 Video Research Thread...

Erich - is this a possible JG53 109G U2? My initial thought was red band - no black because of TP814 'showing up'

Hey Bill, I thought Zimmerman flying WR-I and ur Dads Wingman was shot up so bad from the flak train that he crash landed in Allied Territory??????

I got Rafferty WR-P flying #4 KIA 1 mile past flak train as well.....

Bill understood about the 355th Stangs now

your pic is a JG 301 night fighter captured as it landed mistaking or so the pilot said in England.

lesofprimus said:

Hey Bill, I thought Zimmerman flying WR-I and ur Dads Wingman was shot up so bad from the flak train that he crash landed in Allied Territory??????

I got Rafferty WR-P flying #4 KIA 1 mile past flak train as well.....

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Zimmerman was flying WR-I as dad's wing, Johnson was flying WR-J as element lead (#3) and Rafferty was flying WR-P as #4.

Johnson was the witness on dad's encounter report so he was flying wing during the engagement.

Zimmerman and Rafferty were together S of Marburg. Rafferty hit near Klein-Linden rail and crashed near Rechtenbach. Zimmerman was the Macr witness.

My speculation is that either Zimmerman or Rafferty had a mechanical problem and one was dispatched to cover the other... and Johnson moved up to cover dad. So #2 and #4 were probably out of the fight before it started and decided to go low for targets of opportunity on the way home.

I'll have to research but I don't think Zimmerman was hit, certainly not lost in a belly landing on the Continent. That same WR-I 44-14536 went down with Hull (to flak) six weeks later. I don't see it on Ops again, however, until 25 September so it is possible that it was dinged or went in for an engine change, because it missed the Shuttle Mission 9/18-22

Hmmm, interesting.... Gotta change a couple things up then, and it made this vid slightly easier now....

Here's WR-J in it's final version...

I went back over Johnson's photo to make sure I had as many details as possible...

And you all know who's ride I'm working on now!

Looks phenominal Dave, great work.... Still tryin to figure the music out... I found a version of For Whom The Bell Tolls on the S&M albums, with the Symphonic Orchestra behind them....

I like it.....

Also lookin at a song by Karma to Burn, and instrumental band that really rocks.... Also, Hands All Over by Soundgarden and Live Wire by AC/DC....

Still lookin and listening...

Erich said:

Bill understood about the 355th Stangs now

your pic is a JG 301 night fighter captured as it landed mistaking or so the pilot said in England.

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That makes sense as there is no way the black ship ID shows up on a black band.

I can correct my photo image label. Is this the same one in Mike Williams site - that landed in England in June 1944 timeframe?

I thought most of the JG 301 Gruppe was in central/east Germany?

Comment on Sweet Dorsey up above Bill??? Good to go??? Dave is finishing up the Stangs with ur Dad's....

Dave, if u could, once u finish up the Stangs and get em weathered and filthed up, lemme get them from u so I can insert em into the game.... I can start getting the takeoff sequence goin....

And then, get some bombers done up so I can keep getting the shots I need for the first 2 minutes or so.....

lesofprimus said:

Comment on Sweet Dorsey up above Bill??? Good to go??? Dave is finishing up the Stangs with ur Dad's....

Dave, if u could, once u finish up the Stangs and get em weathered and filthed up, lemme get them from u so I can insert em into the game.... I can start getting the takeoff sequence goin....

And then, get some bombers done up so I can keep getting the shots I need for the first 2 minutes or so.....

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Looks good to me..

Hey Bill, I was thinking that to add even more realism into this thing, if u could provide some mugshots of the 8 guys we're gonna be profiling, or as many as u can, starting with ur Dads of course....

Full face front pics please... We can put their faces on each pilot in the cockpit, and that will kick ass if we can pull it off.....

lesofprimus said:

Hey Bill, I was thinking that to add even more realism into this thing, if u could provide some mugshots of the 8 guys we're gonna be profiling, or as many as u can, starting with ur Dads of course....

Full face front pics please... We can put their faces on each pilot in the cockpit, and that will kick ass if we can pull it off.....

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I don't have a pic of Rafferty - he was only with the squadron for two weeks before KIA. It is ironic that the three 355th guys that went down (all to flak), all had less than two weeks with the group.

In order - Zimmerman, Brown, Marshall, Brown, Hulderman-Johnson-Priest, Priest-Marshall, Woolard, Woolard, Spencer.

The threesome is the only pic I have of Johnson.

I found these pics of ur Dad Bill.. At the very least I need a head on shot of ur Dad, straight on the nose if we can... The cocked/titled/turned head shots wont really work for the pilot skins...

Not quite sure, Dave????

So we've got viable pics, not perfect ones, of 6 of the 8 guys.....

Marshall
2x Brown
Preist
Spencer
Woolard
Zimmerman

Bill, I checked the email u sent me and I'll quote ur email concerning Zimmerman...

"Marshall was scored heavily on a third Me 109, causing a heavy coolant stream, before a storm of flak from a German Flak Train near Hochelheim drove him away.

Zimmerman and Rafferty, flying Red three and four respectively to Marshall, were caught in the same heavy flak barrage. Rafferty spun in and blew up 1 mi west of Hochelheim. Zimmerman was hit also but managed to limp back to Allied lines before crash landing.

Im not sure what happened to Zimmerman flying WR-I now.....

lesofprimus said:

Bill, I checked the email u sent me and I'll quote ur email concerning Zimmerman...

"Marshall was scored heavily on a third Me 109, causing a heavy coolant stream, before a storm of flak from a German Flak Train near Hochelheim drove him away.

Zimmerman and Rafferty, flying Red three and four respectively to Marshall, were caught in the same heavy flak barrage. Rafferty spun in and blew up 1 mi west of Hochelheim. Zimmerman was hit also but managed to limp back to Allied lines before crash landing.

Im not sure what happened to Zimmerman flying WR-I now.....

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A.) Please massa , don't whip me..your quote was correct - I sent excerpts from my book draft in the email.

B.) I went back to the 354 history and found that my memory about the Red Flight order was wrong, then read the Macr for more details on Rafferty.

C.) based on Macr and 354 Mission Summary I just made corrections to book draft

D.) Thanks for your confusion because it helped me correct mine!

The macr is unclear on the reason that #2 and #4 (Zimmerman and Rafferty) separated from #1 and #3, but Rafferty and Zimmerman were by themselves some distance (or out of sight) from dad and Johnson when they were caught by the flak battery.

Based on the lack of reference as to why they were separated, I can't assume it was the same flak battery that chased dad and Johnson off..

Confirmed Facts
Johnson CONFIRMED as #3 so somehow he hooked up on dad's wing - reason unknown

The 354 history has Zimmerman making a belly landing in France but recent research into the tail numbers and accident reports make it a sure thing that the WR-I made it back to 355th at Steeple Morden and flew again on 25 September - two weeks later.


Speculation
So, whether a belly landing or an emergency landing, that ship probably did not stay more than three days because ETO policy stipulated that a ship that was landed (damaged) and not repaired 'soon' was placed into a replacement center and the operating authority (9th AF in this case) would probably have used this one as a replacement ship for 354FG. A plausible scenario is that the History is wrong in that Zimmerman made an emergency landing but the ship was easily repaired.

So, WR-I had a 'problem' after being shot at in same barrage that caught Rafferty. Rechtenbach is next to Hochelheim and is where Rafferty first buried. WR-I (same serial number) was back on Ops 25 September so even if it belly landed, they (France based Service Center - unknown) fixed it in less than two weeks and the 355th 'hung on to it'

Remaining questions
The questions I can not answer from the microfilm history are: How did #2 and #4 separate from #1 and #3? and, Did they separate in the intial bounce due to some violent manuever in the bounce or was it something mundane like an engine problem (maybe reason Zimmerman made an emergency landing) and Rafferty was assigned to escort Zimmerman.

I have one more place to look to see if more is known.

Are we sure that Rafferty and Zimmerman WERE seperated from ur Dad and Johnson by more than sight distance???

If they were infact seperated, I dont have to show Rafferty gettin nailed and goin in then.... Alot easier for me to make the vid...

Im glad my confusion got u in the right direction Bill.... Does this mean I get an acknowledgement in ur book lol????

This has been a very good thread....

lesofprimus said:

Are we sure that Rafferty and Zimmerman WERE seperated from ur Dad and Johnson by more than sight distance???

If they were infact seperated, I dont have to show Rafferty gettin nailed and goin in then.... Alot easier for me to make the vid...

Im glad my confusion got u in the right direction Bill.... Does this mean I get an acknowledgement in ur book lol????

This has been a very good thread....

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Yes, toad-squid, I will stick your name in there - Erich is already in the new credits so you might as well be in my hall of shame.

I need to see if the 355th Group History has a reference - I have it on loan so maybe a day or so.

In Johnson's witness statement he seems clear that both he and dad headed back home on the deck together - with no mention of the wanderers tacking on. I also noticed that Johnson let the pilot run to the trees before strafing the 109.

Bill

part of JG 301 was fielded in France defending the western border of the Reich at night from bomber command. actually flying both night via Bomber command and day missions against US 8th AF. those poor sods must have been whipped doing both mission types.

E ~

I also noticed that Johnson let the pilot run to the trees before strafing the 109.

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Very interesting, will definitely help with tryin to recreate the action accuratly........ I was actually thinking about that scenario this afternoon....

Becca is stealing the keyboard....

BUT, my large breasted bride says I'll see you tomorrow, and I don't even need a write up in the book! ♥

She typed that and is stealing me away from the board.....