My New IL2 Video Research Thread...

[drgondog]

question. the 109 with wing arms is that from 9/11 confirmed ............or ? this might be a III./JG 300 crate but not sure.

no pik-as emblem on the cowling, II. gruppe wore it though but they were not in the area of the engagement.

black bands but not sure what color the vertical bar was as yet.

yes black numerals quoted in the losses records from 11th staffel and yellow for 9th staffel.

well one thing that sucks is that photos of bf 109G-6's are in the trees and heavily camo'd I cannot see a band or bar or really any markings at all.

E ~

Short answer - No it is not confirmed for 9/11.

The stills I have posted were unlabelled copy frames from his film that a friend copied before sending to GD. I labelled them in my images based on attempts to reconstruct the days based on the Encounter reports after GD lost the film...

Collectively, there are 8 separate '109's' film stills in hand.. two are w/gondolas, 5 do not, one is a high deflection with what seems to be a wing tip missing. Of the 8, six are confirmed, one probable and one damaged.

Of the destroyed, two were on the deck. The Probable was at some middle altitude. The Damaged was on the deck and almost certainly the one that was streaming coolant on 9/11

The two with Gondolas' seem to be 'paired' with respect to altitude - and my guess was 9/11 based on a pair. If they do belong together, the date could also be 6/20.. based on your prior help, the units on 6/20 were probably JG 300 between Berlin and Rugen... or JG300 or ?? else in Marburg to SW Kassel area.

Gotz's directive to strip gondolas seems to make JG53 on 9/11 unlikely for the Gondol stills. If JG300 109s also had all removed by 9/11 - then that pair of ships more than likely is from 6/20.

This very helpful to me in reconstruction.. both unit and type.

 

[lesofprimus]

well one thing that sucks is that photos of bf 109G-6's are in the trees and heavily camo'd I cannot see a band or bar or really any markings at all.

E ~

Gggrrrrrrrrr...........

This very helpful to me in reconstruction.. both unit and type.

Helpful to us all, and kinda brings the whole thing together.... Great info Erich....

 

[Erich]

guys there is 1 Bf 109G-6 no underwing arms. black band but no III gruppe bar. yellow 9 a tarp is over the front of the a/c even covering most of the spiral spinner. date is in August of 44.

what the heck were these stupid photographers thinking ??? !

 

[lesofprimus]

Dumbasses....

 

[GrauGeist]

Had some real problems with this one, just couldn't get it to line up right...not sure why. It was almost like one step forward, two back.

Perhaps stress from work has been messing with my groove or something, but Priest's Weepin' Deacon is a wrap!

> Well hell's bells...the serial number layer wasn't turned on...it's there on the skin...just not for this screenshot...

 

[lesofprimus]

Dude, it looks great David... I cant wait to get these guys into the game...

Still havin a bitch of a time getting the initital attack done.... Ill get it sooner or later but damn what a whore....

 

[drgondog]

Had some real problems with this one, just couldn't get it to line up right...not sure why. It was almost like one step forward, two back.

Perhaps stress from work has been messing with my groove or something, but Priest's Weepin' Deacon is a wrap!

> Well hell's bells...the serial number layer wasn't turned on...it's there on the skin...just not for this screenshot...

Excellent - one little thang.

All the NMF ships had Black ETO band on top of wing and stabiliazer - Only the OD wings/tails had the white bacnds

 

[GrauGeist]

Well dang it Bill, that's actually something that I thought I knew!

I had believed that the bands were white on all a/c until a certain stage, which was about winter 1944/1945 then all went black!

NO problem though, fixing that, is quite easy!

Thanks Dan, and to be honest, I think I have the easy part of this project...setting up a mission like this has gotta be medieval!

 

[lesofprimus]

So which crates have the black bands and which have the white????

1. P-51D-5 Jane III WR-B Marshall
2. P-51D-5 ThunderWagon WR-I Zimmerman
3. P-51D-5 Sweet Dorsey WR-J Johnson
4. P-51C Malcom The Iowa Beaut WR-P Rafferty

5. P-51D-5 Red Arrrow WR-Z Brown
6. P-51B Dragon Wagon WR-Y Spencer
7. P-51D-5 Weepin Deacon II WR-E Priest
8. P-51C Malcom WR-W Woolard

 

[GrauGeist]

So which crates have the black bands and which have the white????

The ones with black should be:
1. P-51D-5 Jane III WR-B Marshall

3. P-51D-5 Sweet Dorsey WR-J Johnson

7. P-51D-5 Weepin Deacon II WR-E Priest

From what I can figure out, WR-I "Thunderwagon" Zimmerman's ride might be a little older than the three above, and if this is the case, it would most likely have a finish similiar to WR-Z Brown's.

The white will be:
2. P-51D-5 ThunderWagon WR-I Zimmerman

4. P-51C Malcom The Iowa Beaut WR-P Rafferty

5. P-51D-5 Red Arrrow WR-Z Brown

6. P-51B Dragon Wagon WR-Y Spencer

8. P-51C Malcom WR-W Woolard

 

[lesofprimus]

Thanks for all ur hard work Dave, Bill and Erich....

Been workin out the mission some, think I may have the beginning set ups close, some tweakin left to be done.... Its bein a bitch, and will nly get tougher... Im gonna have to fly ALOT of scenarios to get just one kill....

Literally, I tried 20 times to get that first diving kill after dropping tanks, and all I was able to accomplish, ONCE, was maybe 3 .50 cal strikes.....

Not 1 kill in 20 tries... Ur Dad was the fu*kin man Bill, cause that vertical dive kill is tough....

Bill, any shots of Steeple u can provide for the in-video Airbase???

 

[GrauGeist]

OK, corrections duly noted, and executed!

 

[drgondog]

The ones with black should be:
1. P-51D-5 D-10Jane III WR-B Marshall Yes

3. P-51D-5 D-10Sweet Dorsey WR-J Johnson Yes

7. P-51D-5 Weepin Deacon II WR-E Priest Yes

From what I can figure out, WR-I "Thunderwagon" Zimmerman's ride might be a little older than the three above, and if this is the case, it would most likely have a finish similiar to WR-Z Brown's.

I don't have a pic - but most 355 ships did not have NMF with OD top wing. The exceptions I know of were WRA 305/WRZ 305 same ship. WRS 228 (Al White's) but I don't know one way or the other on WRI

The white will be:
2. P-51D-5 ThunderWagon WR-I Zimmerman Possible but I would say black over NMF top wing

4. P-51C Malcom The Iowa Beaut WR-P Rafferty

5. P-51D-5 Red Arrrow WR-Z Brown

6. P-51B Dragon Wagon WR-Y Spencer

8. P-51C Malcom WR-W Woolard

Quite a few OD 355 ships went NMF in July but I don't have any shots of the above P-51B post August except WRP - so any path is acceptable until proven otherwise.

 

[drgondog]

Thanks for all ur hard work Dave, Bill and Erich....

Been workin out the mission some, think I may have the beginning set ups close, some tweakin left to be done.... Its bein a bitch, and will nly get tougher... Im gonna have to fly ALOT of scenarios to get just one kill....

Literally, I tried 20 times to get that first diving kill after dropping tanks, and all I was able to accomplish, ONCE, was maybe 3 .50 cal strikes.....

Not 1 kill in 20 tries... Ur Dad was the fu*kin man Bill, cause that vertical dive kill is tough....

Bill, any shots of Steeple u can provide for the in-video Airbase???

Dan - I suspect you are right about higher difficulty. The diving chase puts both a/c in more unstable and much higher speed flight path. The 51 was a little squirrily at speeds close to and into compressibility. Stick was a little jumpy w/o really being too efective and actually best left alone until lowe altitude densities reached and the bird slowed down.

His July 28 kill was described as 24,000 feet of chase, and 1,000 feet more for the 109 as it was out of control, and he wasn't getting too many strikes - but he pulled out just above the deck and the 109 didn't.

 

[lesofprimus]

Thanks for the shots and info Bill....

 

[GrauGeist]

Alright, this is a rough approximation of what WR-I "Thunderwagon" could have looked like...

As with any of these skins, nothing is permament, so if there's any additional details, we can always modify...

 

[GrauGeist]

Next issue...

Bill!! Help!!

I'm on Johnson's WR-J "Sweet Dorsey" and I have a few questions...

One would be the noseart, was the text on a red background with yellow-ish lettering? It just doesn't look white in either of the photos, but strikes me as being yellow...The background looks to be red or perhaps blue...like I said, it's hard to nail it down.

Also on the rudder, the tab is painted a dark color, again looking to be either blue or red...

Lastly, between the cowling and the cockpit, there's a dark patch...was this Johnson's name, his crew chief's name...or an add from In-and-Out Burgers? I'm at a loss here...

Any ideas?

 

[drgondog]

Next issue...

Bill!! Help!!

I'm on Johnson's WR-J "Sweet Dorsey" and I have a few questions...

One would be the noseart, was the text on a red background with yellow-ish lettering? It just doesn't look white in either of the photos, but strikes me as being yellow...The background looks to be red or perhaps blue...like I said, it's hard to nail it down.

Also on the rudder, the tab is painted a dark color, again looking to be either blue or red...

Lastly, between the cowling and the cockpit, there's a dark patch...was this Johnson's name, his crew chief's name...or an add from In-and-Out Burgers? I'm at a loss here...

Any ideas?

Johnson inherited Bill Martin's "Martin's Gloria". He had seven Iron Crosses (black core/white outline on a red rectangular block). The pictures below are of WR-J in late August/very early sept. This ship was damaged and replaced by the WR-J 44-14089. I don't have the damage report so I can't tell exact date in September.

The fact that the victory crosses are still on it means a relatively short time passed between overpainting Martin's Gloria, the erasing the victory symbols - as Johnson had no credits.

I can't tell for sure but I believe the following. Red trim tab, red 'arrow' w/Martin's Gloria - can't tell color of Martin's Gloria or Sweet Dorsey but inclined to believe yellow when comparing against white cowl band.

 

[lesofprimus]

How does Thunderwagon look to u Bill???

 

[drgondog]

How does Thunderwagon look to u Bill???

It looks great - I always liked the wavy top camo scheme even though it wasn't widely adopted. There is a good chance Perry's ship would have block letters and no art, less chance but possible that his P-51D would have the wavy camo top.

His crew chief passed away 10 years ago and Perry longer than that so no way I know to verify or challenge Dave's work.

Short answer - I like it