My New IL2 Video Research Thread...

[GrauGeist]

Thanks guys, glad ya' like it, she sure shaped up pretty well.

I'm on WR-E, Priest's now and next will be Zimmerman's Johnson's...

And then Jane III, the best for last!

I'll weather 'em as soon as I have all completed, weathering dulls the details to a certain degree, and I am trying to catch any details I may have missed before the final cut. Plus creating a weathering layer can be one of the hardest steps of the skin.

Dan, as far as the mission and the lack of co-operation by the AI...perhaps you can create a "mini" mission for the detailed parts of the movie. I had to do that in "End Game" because the escorts were zooming all freakin' over the place, the Luftwaffe scattered and I had a real dog and pony show on my hands. So I created a series of mini missions that focused on key points of the fight, using just the aircraft that would be in the focus at that point of the movie. It gave me much better control, and it also eliminated the sketching that was killin' me at the beginning. I took the footage from the mini missions and inserted them into the timeline as I was editing, it allowed me some real good scene ops, too.

By the way, did we ever come up with a photo of WR-I "Thunderwagon"? I know it looks like WR-B "JaneIII", but what about the noseart?

 

[lesofprimus]

Gotta ask Bill about Thunder Wagon... Ill chech this thread again, but I think thats the only one we're missing a pic or profile of...

I had to do the same thing with the Willi Reschke video I made Dave... And Im gonna have to do it here again as well I think... Most scenes wont be a problem, but the diving theough the bomber stream 109's is gonna be tough to get right....

Maybe if I lead the 109s through the split-ess, attack and dive they will follow me.... Or even make the 109's Allies and try it that way....

 

[lesofprimus]

No pic of Thunder Wagon in this thread Dave.... If Bill dont have one, we may be outta luck....

Any pointers on how she should look Bill??? I know the same as JaneIII, but what about the word Thunderwagon???

 

[drgondog]

No pic of Thunder Wagon in this thread Dave.... If Bill dont have one, we may be outta luck....

Any pointers on how she should look Bill??? I know the same as JaneIII, but what about the word Thunderwagon???

I don't truly know.

The reference to the name was in a letter from his crew chief, now deceased - His Jug had an Art DeCosta representative of Pan with flute early on but do not know if it had a name per se. He switched to Thunderwagon around the same time his flight leader Koraleski named his ship Miss Thunder in Oct 1943.

I would speculate Block Letters as DeCosta quit doing nose art when oil portraits of the fighter pilots became more lucrative..

examples:

 

[Erich]

Bill

JG 53 book is not here yet, prob next week. does confirm that LW crates had underwing 2cm weapons pods to their G-6's

 

[lesofprimus]

Oh really Erich??? That changes it up some... Im amazed the JG53 boys didnt get more than 1 or 2 B-24's then...

 

[Erich]

Les

unless the damaged 109 Bill showed at the top of that page is a G-6 from III./JG 301, it does not matter, the same type of 109G from JG 4 attacked the 94th and 100th bg's but not in the same area......... P-51's slaughtered them as well.

JG 53's crates may have been a mix of underwing cannon jobs and those without to take on the US Mustangs

dang I hope this is making some sense my brain is on overload right now

 

[lesofprimus]

Its makin sense man... When u get that book Im sure we'll get a clearer picture as to what transpired....

For the record, I have 4 schwarms of 4 109G-6's attacking the B-24 box....

 

[Erich]

cool the way it is is all being presented, Bill's pics you guys have attempted with beautiful graphics to get the Allied side and the LW side correct is truly remarkable, when you think about this scenario as one it really is an ideal research tool don't think anyone has really thought about seriously except for the history channel but they just have gone with the flow and really don't give a rip what a/c does what or the markings correct ......... so for the most part their accuracy of the event has to be discounted.

E ~

 

[lesofprimus]

And thats why this vid is gonna be the measuring bar for accuracy in the IL2 Gaming world...

Just gotta get the music sorted out, kinda at a loss as to where to go.... I may use a Metallica song for the extra time on the video.... 3 1/2 minutes is not gonna be a long enough timeframe to tell this whole mission from Bills' Dad's seat....

Maybe we'll even get a shot of some actual 9 11 machines in the book Erich....

 

[drgondog]

Bill

JG 53 book is not here yet, prob next week. does confirm that LW crates had underwing 2cm weapons pods to their G-6's

E~ a note of caution.

The extracts from dad's film came from the complete set and at one time what I identified as 9/11 could have been 6/20/44 South of Rugen in a tangle with JG300 so I am NOT 100% sure which was which as the others clearly Do NOT have the undewing pods.

The film was 'misplaced by General Dynamics back in the late 70's when they did their very nice 'promo' for the F-16 and contained history and interviews from WWI through WWII, Korea and Vietnam.

Here is the other batch that got intermingled - all labelled Jun 20 - two air to air plus a probable

 

[lesofprimus]

This clip from ur Dad's film shows gondolas Bill.... I would assume most of em had them installed....

 

[Erich]

understood gents. even though for 9/11/44 it is quite a possibility that one staffel had the underwing weapons while another one did not even in the same gruppe. if the responsibility was for 109G equipped JG 53 to counter the US escorts then no they would not have carried them. this is stille arly enough in the fall of 44 for this to be the case -------- have the underwing arms carried.

again will read the text from Priens history when it comes an report duty here along with any notations of camo, A/C numbers and pilots, etc.

 

[drgondog]

This clip from ur Dad's film shows gondolas Bill.... I would assume most of em had them installed....

Dan - No question about gondolas - what I was not able to do is clearly separate June 20 from July 28 from Aug 6 and Sept 11 when GD lost my original film. It is possible that each had a combo, or one pair was with and the other without gondolas. Erich's book may help nail whether any of 9. or 11. of either JG300 or JG 53 had gondolas that day

Dad had two days of doubles and either damaged or probable on the third.

His other 3 air scores were singles and seem easily separable from this batch.

Prien's volumes will help somewhat.

From the engagements dad had with 109s, I. III./JG3, III./JG53, III./JG300 seem to be the 'other side in that 10 week span.

This exercise may repair what GD screwed up for me 30 years ago

 

[lesofprimus]

Interesting info Bill.... Did u end up getting any compensation from GD???

 

[drgondog]

Interesting info Bill.... Did u end up getting any compensation from GD???

Nah - they screwed up more guys than just me. Had we all been on the ball and pestered them sooner about returning it the outcome might have been different. I waited three years and raised my hand only after their production was out for a year before inquiring.

If I did it today I would insist on immediate copy and return - in writing.

 

[Erich]

ok gents I feel like dog poop right now but am going to give this in installments, the book came and it is big, thick and heavy and pretty neat if you ask me. will give losses first :

Stab III. gruppe Oberfhr Peter Bär (Maybe a cousin) shot down and KIA with enemy fighters crashed near Hattenhausen 100 % 109G-6 Black < 4 + I

9. staffel Uffz. Hermann Heck shot down with P-51's, crashed at Gross-Eichen, pilot bailed out. Yellow 9 + I Bf 109G-6; this was his 6th mission.

9. staffel, Oblt. Martin von Vacano -Staffelkapitän had engine failure forced landing at Paderborn in 109G-6 Yellow 7 + I

11. staffel, Fliger Fritz Weinzierl shot down with B-24's and P-51's in the area of Nürnberg Bf 109G-6, Black 1 + I

11. staffel, Uffz. Hermann Pusch, shot down in combat with P-51's and crasehd near Nürnberg, 100 %, Hermann was shot down in his parachure. Bf 109G-6, Black 7 + I

11 staffel, Uffz. Hubert Sommerhoff, hit and a/c damaged with P-51's forced landing at Mölln. Pilot wounded. Bf 109G-6, Black 21 + I

11 staffel, Lt. Dieter Harpel shot down and wounded with B-24's and P-51's, carshed near Nürnberg, Bf 109G-6, Black 15 + I

III. gruppe, pilot not known, shot down in air combat crashed near Lohra near Marburg, A/C 100 %, bf 109G-6 ?

until I do some digging will not know if these were U4's or G-6/AS or ........ ?

the Black Reich band was instituted in August of 44, so these crates wore them.

.....it mentions in a short blurb that Peter Bär collided with a P-51 flown by Captain Walter Morgan of the 358th fg ? and both crashed to their deaths between Bellnhausen and Hassenhausen.

the text is very brief too much so on this mission which I will copy here shortly ........... also of note the ace of spades emblem was removed in September of 44.

 

[Erich]

the III. gruppe received some 58 Bf 109 G-6's, NO AS versions, in June of 44 most with underwing 2cm cannons. Major Götz because of what happened to III. gruppe in the Med and US fighter opposition had ALL CANNONS UNDERWING REMOVED .............

the new 12th staffel was forming up in September 44's beginning but did not fly till later in the month, so the gruppe during the 11 September disaster had three staffeln flying.

 

[lesofprimus]

Great stuff Erich, thanks for the research man......

If all the 109G-6's had their gondolas removed, why is it that Bill's Dad shot one down??? Unless the gun cam shows a JG300 crate with em on gettin nailed....

We now know they had the black band... What color was the III. Gruppe vertical bar for both Staffel???

As for the black numerals on 11. Staffel and Yellow on 9., are we sure of that now???

Also, the Ace of Spades was gone in Sept, but on Sept 11th, would some/all still have had them on???

 

[Erich]

question. the 109 with wing arms is that from 9/11 confirmed ............or ? this might be a III./JG 300 crate but not sure.

no pik-as emblem on the cowling, II. gruppe wore it though but they were not in the area of the engagement.

black bands but not sure what color the vertical bar was as yet.

yes black numerals quoted in the losses records from 11th staffel and yellow for 9th staffel.

well one thing that sucks is that photos of bf 109G-6's are in the trees and heavily camo'd I cannot see a band or bar or really any markings at all.

E ~