My New IL2 Video Research Thread...

[lesofprimus]

OK E, was unsure which was which when I posted the losses..... Lookin foward to the JG53 info when the book comes in and u get the time...

BTW, got Willi's book back from my son so I should have those pages for u out in the mail within the next couple days Brother....

 

[GrauGeist]

Ok gang...here's the first of the "D"s off the line.

Still some major bugs to iron out, but I have discovered some interesting stuff about WR-Z along the way. For example, the A was over-painted prior to the Z being applied...I barely noticed that at first.

Also, the entire tail is white, you can see below the elevator where it terminates, and just above the rudder hinge along the top-foreward.

Bill's information was huge in getting the details and I used this image as a guide for the most part, the artwork I've seen (and that skin Dan posted) wasn't really on the money in many respects:

And here's a first look at Brown's crate, and remember, I have a ton of stuff to finish/tweak on this...this is just a preview:

 

[beaupower32]

Those screen shots are turning out great. Keep up the good work. Cant wait to see the video!

 

[drgondog]

Ok gang...here's the first of the "D"s off the line.

Still some major bugs to iron out, but I have discovered some interesting stuff about WR-Z along the way. For example, the A was over-painted prior to the Z being applied...I barely noticed that at first.

Also, the entire tail is white, you can see below the elevator where it terminates, and just above the rudder hinge along the top-foreward.

Bill's information was huge in getting the details and I used this image as a guide for the most part, the artwork I've seen (and that skin Dan posted) wasn't really on the money in many respects:

Great work. One quick point. Rudder white but vertical stabilzer is NMF - only rudder was white.

Yes to the A, no to A. Kinnard gave his WR-A 44-14305 Man O War to Brown when Kinnard went to 4th to take over for Blakeslee. Kinnard also scored on 9/11 shooting down a 109 in the air and getting an Me 410 on the ground at Halle. His a/c was QP-A Man O War and is on the Hasegawa 1/32 scale P-51D

Here is another view of WR-Z 44-14305 taken literally days before the 9/11 mission right after Kinnard left 355th

really nice work!

The second pic is the painting of my father's Mustang Jane IV one month later when he was promoted to light colonel

 

[GrauGeist]

Hmmm...if the vert isn't painted, then it's a trick of the light on the panel surfaces..ok, no prob...easy to fix!

I'll add that to my list of adjustments such

Speaking of lighting, notice how the angle of the sun washed out the kills on the first of the last two pics?

And the artwork on the book cover is cool, and when did they go to black ID bands and a red rudder? Would that have been in October 44?

 

[drgondog]

Hmmm...if the vert isn't painted, then it's a trick of the light on the panel surfaces..ok, no prob...easy to fix!

I'll add that to my list of adjustments such

Speaking of lighting, notice how the angle of the sun washed out the kills on the first of the last two pics?

And the artwork on the book cover is cool, and when did they go to black ID bands and a red rudder? Would that have been in October 44?

In late October/early September most of 8th AF FC went to separate cowl/rudder schemes to differentiate between squadrons within Group, and Groups from other Groups.

the 355th retained the white spinner they always had, the 4th retained red spinner, 357 kept the red/yellow band spinner, etc. They ditched the Invasion Stripes in late November, 1944.

Then the 354FS within 355 FG went from white cowl/rudder to red. the 357FS went from white cowl/rudder to Blue and the 358FS went to Yellow. You have probably seen this scheme on some Mustang specials on Military and Discovery Channel. They frequently use the color photo segments of 355th filmed in March 1945.

The black band on wing top was used for NMF and the white band was used for OD. The 355th ditched that schema in late September 1944 also.

4th FG largely ditched theirs in late September, 1944 also but some retained the black wing/tail band into spring 1945.

As to the kill markings of WR-Z with Braun (CC) on the wing I suspect scraped off kill markings from WR-A before they knew who would get the ship. Ironically Brown had the same number air/ground scores as Kinnard - so they could have just left them as it was when Kinnard left the Group for the 4th.

Over the next three weeks Kinnard would get two more scores, Brown would get 12 more.

 

[lesofprimus]

Great work Dave, its comin along great...

Thanks for the additional info and pics Bill, its really makin a difference in the accuracy of this vid...

Ive got the first 2 segments done now..... Well, not done but tweaked and set up.... Take off at Steeple Morden, airfield needs some detail.... Any pics of the airfield/airbase that I can use to attempt a close reproduction Bill???

The other segment is the formation of P-51's joining up with the B-24's... P-51's at 24,000 feet, B-24's at 22,000 feet....

Now the hard part begins, tryin to mimick Berts' combats....

 

[drgondog]

Hmmm...if the vert isn't painted, then it's a trick of the light on the panel surfaces..ok, no prob...easy to fix!

David - here are three more white rudders with more definition - each from a different squadron

Al Whites WR-S and Bill Cullerton's OS-X and Jim McElroy's YF-S in same timeframe.

Dan - dad's chase was fairly simple. Dive, catch, shoot - dodge debris, pull out near deck - 2.) see, chase, catch, shoot, over run while it crashes in field, 3.) see, chase, hit w/deflection shot at 300 yards, close, hit some more, see glycol streaming, see air around him fill up with 20mm flack, perform 180, get the hell out of there.

Brown's was more exciting as his four jumped 8+ and had a manuevering fight - in each case turn inside the 109 and get deflection, then move to next one - all level on the deck. His last was cutting across the circle to hit a 109 chasing his #4 guy in a 90 degree deflection shot (K-14)..

 

[lesofprimus]

No pics Bill....

 

[GrauGeist]

Thanks Dan, your vid is going to be more accurate than half the stuff they show on the History Channel!

Alright, WR-Z after some adjusting...

Some of you may recognize RedBeard's personal (non-historical) skin "BigRed" formed up on WR-Z, that's because I need a chase plane to get a certain perspective (and I'm using his gamer PC to run '46) for these screenshots

Also, I'll toss in two images of WR-Z that illustrate what I had been referring to a few posts back.

The first shows where they painted over the A, then applied the Z over that. I almost didn't notice that, but reproducing it helps the accuracy of the skin.

The other will show why I mistook the vert for being white along with the rudder. Working with B&W photos can be tricky sometimes

Trying to keep these as accurate as possible, and thanks for your patients, Bill...

 

[drgondog]

No pics Bill....

more from 9/11 different cuts for 1, 2 and 3 (damage claim only)

 

[lesofprimus]

Looks outstanding Dave and great info Bill......

4 more to go....

Gotta make sure that Jane III (WR-B) and Thunder Wagon (WR-I) (Zimmerman) ,Bert Marshalls wingman, are full on tits....

 

[lesofprimus]

Dan - dad's chase was fairly simple. Dive, catch, shoot - dodge debris, pull out near deck - 2.) see, chase, catch, shoot, over run while it crashes in field, 3.) see, chase, hit w/deflection shot at 300 yards, close, hit some more, see glycol streaming, see air around him fill up with 20mm flack, perform 180, get the hell out of there.

Fairly simple??? For whom????

Superman???

PLEASE MAKE ANY CORRECTIONS NOW BILL.....

Goin by the combat report and several other pieces of info u were kind enough to provide Bill, this is whats gonna happen, IF I can get the IL2 game engine to cooperate... All D models will be D-5's, B-15 w/Malcom Hood will be P-51C, Birdcage Dragon Wagon will be B... All -51's have dual droptanks...

Red Yellow Flights of The Steeple Morden Strafers 354th Fighter Squadron of the 355th Fighter Group
Red Flight
Marshall Jane III
Zimmerman Thunder Wagon Shotdown/Crash Aliied Lines
Johnson Sweet Dorsey
Rafferty The Iowa Beaut KIA Flak

Yellow Flight
Brown Red Arrow
Spencer Dragon Wagon
Preist Weepin Deacon II
Woolard ---

Take Off Steeple Morden 9/11/44 0943 hrs
Rendevouz near Koblenz @ 24k feet with 24 B-24's of the 578th Bomber Squardon of the 392nd Bomb Group @ 21k feet @ 1120 hrs

At approx 1148 hrs, observe several flights (16 total 109's form 9. 11./JG53) of aircraft approaching from 11'oclock high (27k feet)

Aircraft thought to be freindly overfly B-24 formation, split-ess and attack in dive from 5'oclock posistion....

Red Yellow Flights drop tanks and dive after 109's that have made one pass diving through formation....

Bert Marshall (Me flying) picks out 2 trailers in the dive, aims for the leader of the Rotte, and at approx 11k feet opens fire at 350yds and sees strikes all over him....

Pull off to the right, almost into cumulus clouds, as his #3 Johnson sees him explode, which is obscured by my left wing...

Immeditaly chase down #2 109 to the deck, getting in a couple bursts... On the deck he overtakes him and opens fire at 200yds-50yds, seeing strikes all over e/a....

Pull off and away and aircraft crashes into field, breaks off tail and crashes into fence.... Lt Johnson #3 comes in and strafes e/a....

While pulling off, he sees another 109 @ 11'oclock @ 1,000feet and gives chase, dropping down to the deck in his pursuit... Open fire at 300yds, sees strikes all over... E/a evasive maneuvering, a few more strikes, and the whole world explodes....

Near Hochelhim, a 20mm Flak Train opens up on Red Flight, hitting Rafferty and Zimmerman.... Rafferty goes in 1 mile from train and is KIA.... Zimmerman takes his shot up crate back to Allied lines and crashlands, returns to Steeple Morden...

Bf 109G-6 contines to circle over town.... Later crash lands in flames, pilot has 3x .50 cal wounds which remove major meat and keep pilot out of War...

Bert does a 180 and heads home, no strafing attacks commenced....

 

[drgondog]

Fairly simple??? For whom????

Superman???

PLEASE MAKE ANY CORRECTIONS NOW BILL.....

Goin by the combat report and several other pieces of info u were kind enough to provide Bill, this is whats gonna happen, IF I can get the IL2 game engine to cooperate... All D models will be D-5's, B-15 w/Malcom Hood will be P-51C, Birdcage Dragon Wagon will be B... All -51's have dual droptanks...

Red Yellow Flights of The Steeple Morden Strafers 354th Fighter Squadron of the 355th Fighter Group
Red Flight
Marshall Jane III
Zimmerman Thunder Wagon Shotdown/Crash Aliied Lines
Johnson Sweet Dorsey
Rafferty The Iowa Beaut KIA Flak

Yellow Flight
Brown Red Arrow
Spencer Dragon Wagon
Preist Weepin Deacon II
Woolard ---

Take Off Steeple Morden 9/11/44 0943 hrs
Rendevouz near Koblenz @ 24k feet with 24 B-24's of the 578th Bomber Squardon of the 392nd Bomb Group @ 21k feet @ 1120 hrs

At approx 1148 hrs, observe several flights (16 total 109's form 9. 11./JG53) of aircraft approaching from 11'oclock high (27k feet)

Aircraft thought to be freindly overfly B-24 formation, split-ess and attack in dive from 5'oclock posistion....

Red Yellow Flights drop tanks and dive after 109's that have made one pass diving through formation....

Bert Marshall (Me flying) picks out 2 trailers in the dive, aims for the leader of the Rotte, and at approx 11k feet opens fire at 350yds and sees strikes all over him....

Pull off to the right, almost into cumulus clouds, as his #3 Johnson sees him explode, which is obscured by my left wing...

Immeditaly chase down #2 109 to the deck, getting in a couple bursts... On the deck he overtakes him and opens fire at 200yds-50yds, seeing strikes all over e/a....

Pull off and away and aircraft crashes into field, breaks off tail and crashes into fence.... Lt Johnson #3 comes in and strafes e/a....

While pulling off, he sees another 109 @ 11'oclock @ 1,000feet and gives chase, dropping down to the deck in his pursuit... Open fire at 300yds, sees strikes all over... E/a evasive maneuvering, a few more strikes, and the whole world explodes....

Near Hochelhim, a 20mm Flak Train opens up on Red Flight, hitting Rafferty and Zimmerman.... Rafferty goes in 1 mile from train and is KIA.... Zimmerman takes his shot up crate back to Allied lines and crashlands, returns to Steeple Morden...

Bf 109G-6 contines to circle over town.... Later crash lands in flames, pilot has 3x .50 cal wounds which remove major meat and keep pilot out of War...

Bert does a 180 and heads home, no strafing attacks commenced....

This is as good as it gets. great read and synthesis.

add'l info on 355th

Green flight of 354 get three and strafe Marburg A/D

Maisch of Green/358 attacks the same 109s as Green/354 and gets two. Morgan KIA over Marburg, hit by flak, bails out low, streamer.

357FS stays with the B-24s and escorts to R/V point sw Kassel where 359th relieves them to escort to Hannover/Misburg

 

[lesofprimus]

Alright, cool... Now we got the easy part outta the way......

 

[GrauGeist]

I think we have a winner!

After a number of changes and re-doing, it's done!

Trying to get as much detail into this crate as possible so it'll pave the way for the other Ds, saving the best for last, naturally

Using all the photos, artwork and data Bill provided, here's Brown's crate as close to the real deal as I can get.

Have a look over and give me the critique...if anything needs to be adjusted, it's pretty simple, really.

If it's good to go, then the next ones will follow along pretty dang fast.

 

[lesofprimus]

It looks great Dave... I cant see anything wrong... Once she gets weathered up, it'll be perfect....

Thanks again for spending so much time with this Dave, its very appreciated...

 

[beaupower32]

She looks great.

 

[drgondog]

If not tough to do - most of the 355th P-51D's in that timeframe had the twin Spit mirrors on the windscreen canopy frame.

In this portfolio of D-5 and D-10's - only WRJ did not have the twin mirrors,

BTW - simply outstanding!!

 

[lesofprimus]

Its a MOD for the game that I have Bill, so it should be there once I get the vid crackin...

Im havin a bitch of a time trying to get the 109's to split-ess, attack the B-24's from 5'oclock position and keep diving... They all want to climb and attack again... Ive tried different tactics and AI instructions, to no avail...

Im gonna keep on trying but any help would be appreciated...