PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS

Hope you feel better and I know how you feel because of the abnormal warm winter that we had my allergies are killing me. I normally dont get them, but this year I am being hit by them hard.

FLYBOYJ said:

Thanks Udet - I know we (the West) have been enlightened with new information regarding Soviet Pilots in Korea since the 1990s, after the fall of the Soviet Union. Although many old Korean War vets have come foward to confirm what was already known, I believe a lot of the "newer" stories by some of these guys and authors who document their claims is nothing more than repeated Soviet propaganda carried down over the years and it's apparent by the the claims made by the Soviets. There is no denying that US (UN) claims were also exaggerated but if you put it in perspective the US (UN) air-to-air victory claims are a lot more believable than some of the BS put out by the Soviets. Bottom line Soviet lied.

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Well there is actually the obvious fact of overclaim made by Soviet pilots against UN air forces which cannot be denied. Before treating them as liars, some might want to check the actual nature of the combat records made by UN pilots. First as mentioned, the 792 kills claim made by US pilots is false all the way for sure although many have and still do assume that this is fact, as well as the B-29's gunner claims and stories of huge attacking numbers of MiGs which were also false.

Anyways, there's always the mention of Soviet propaganda, when actually the soviet involvement was secret, wonder which would be the purpose of that propaganda? For example, on April 22 1952, Colonel Yevgeni Pepelyayev (21 kill ace) was awarded with the Golden Star of the Heroe of the Soviet Union. A particular characteristic of the ceremony was that Pepelyayev have civilian clothes, and in the speech there was no mention of the actions why he deserve the award.

Maybe you're talking about modern russian propaganda which I would rather call bragging and is widely used by Western enthusiasts and veterans as well.

Now the actual losses admitted by Soviets was 335, 231 for the Chinese and about 46 for the Koreans. That comes to 612, pretty close to the 792 that's true although the latter number would be F-86 only kills, now we're talking about 600 MiG-15 losses from all causes. Indeed, the main cause of MiG loss was actually the uncontrolable spins which the MiG desing notoriously featured and contrary to UN pilots, Communist didn't wore G-suits over Korea, that resulted in several losses in air and outside air-combat. Several US pilots actually claimed the spinning MiGs as victories, James Jabara for example claimed once a victory when seeing a spinning MiG-15 that had previously been seen by his wingman, but anyways I wouldn't call him a liar would I Flyboy?

3041 UN aircraft were lost in Korea,

Of this number:

41 have no reason given
11 are listed as lost for unknown reasons
164 list a reason but no category
991 are non-combat losses (crashes in training, landing/takeoff from carriers, typhoons, accidents, etc.)
1,150 were lost due to AAA damage,blew up in midair
683 were combat losses (non AAA inflicted)

Of that 683 --

4 were midair collisions (3 with MiG-15s, 1 with a Po-2)
12 were claimed by the KPAFAC
14 were claimed by the PLAAF
15 were claimed by both the PLAAF and the VVS
227 were claimed by the VVS
407 were lost in strafing runs, bomb runs, accidents in combat, etc.

You can check at Kornwald Korean War Air Loss Database (KORWALD), the most reliable source for US Korean war air losses.

Numerous russian scholars point that the UN side too often explained losses due to MiGs as technical (« Instrument malfunction » or « fuel exhaustion »)

We can verify this for example using some of Maj.Pepelyayev record on Yevgeny Pepelyayev - top Russian ace :

"On April, 3, 1951 on April 3 three MiGs of the 176th GvIAP were shot down by the American Sabre pilots (one of them by James Jabara) and only one F-86A was downed by Kapetan (Captain) Ivan Yablokov - the one flown by Ronald Shirlaw (POW) "

However to the data of the USAF shows this plane is lost, ostensibly, for only technical reason: «Instrument malfunction, fuel exhaustion»

See : KORWALD Loss Incident Summary
KORWALD Loss Incident Summary

Date of Loss: 51/04/03
Tail Number: 49-1173
Aircraft Type: F-86A
Wing or Group: 4th Ftr-Int Gp
Circumstances of Loss: Instrument malfunction, fuel exhaustion, bellied in on river bank 10 mi NW of Kaesong


Another example : " next day April 4 the MiG-15 pilot Starshii Leitenant (1st Lt.) Fiodor A. Shebanov scored the first victory of the 196th IAP when bagged one F-86A (not admitted by USAF but confirmed by the guncamera footage and the fact that a Soviet ground party led by Major V. P. Zhuchenko found the Sabre's wreckage in the ground)"

Apparently, Russian ground search group finds the F-86A on the ground, however according to official loss-count that day, April, 4, 1951, the USAF had not lost any F-86A. Search here if you like : KORWALD Date of Loss Report

Third example : - " 7 April the MiG drivers of the 176th GvIAP shot down the F-80C of Jack Thompson (downed by Boris Obratsov) and the B-29A BuNo 44-86268 (by Ivan Suchkov);
- on April 10 again Fiodor Shebanov shot-up the F-86A BuNo 49-1093 and his buddy the WW2 ace Kapetan Aleksandr Vasiko bagged the F-80C of Douglas Matheson (KIA). "


Jack Thompson's F-80 shows up : KORWALD Loss Incident Summary

as hit by ground fire...

but not F-86A BuNo 49-1093 and Douglas Matheson's F-80.

Now the same situation appears with the US side claiming something that doesn't appear in Soviet records, the best example would be Russel Brown's famous first jet vs jet kill.

The fact is that the actual real UN actual air losses by MiGs will not be known for sure for a long time. Spurious claims were certainly made by the two sides, for example the numerous F-86 kill claims made by Soviet pilots were in many cases, if indeed real, other types of US/UN aircraft as Western fighters were often misidentified. Same situation of overclaiming appeared during the BoB, over the Eastern Front or in the Cold War air battles over Korea and Vietnam (yes the 2:1 kill ratio is too, but I'll leave this for another day maybe). Most of the time, overclaiming if motivated by a socio-political issue (i.e.: propaganda if you like), the fact that the military shows the people what it wants to see.

This quote might explain better (Air Combat Episodes) :

Turning to the question of aces, we would to place our attention on the question of those achievements which are found in our sources of information. As is known, any sort of validated statistics, which lay out the results of the combat work of Soviet pilots in Korea has not been published up until the present time. On the other hand, the success of our American rivals has been widely published in the mass information media of both that time and in the latest works on the history of the conflict. But at the same time, as to this information, which sharply differs from our own, alas, we have not been able to correct the accounting or, at the very least, find any which is more correct that what we present in the following recounting. At that time, documents in our archives on Soviet aviation units were only permitted access for the internal use of the VVS, whereas the Far Eastern Air Force of the USAF controlled the data which was released for public use. But the public at that time was only interested in the valor shown over "Mig Alley" in what was otherwise a completely unpopular war. In this, the attempts of journalists to wipe the smoke of minimizing the losses and maximizing the victory claims from the eyes of the public was simply inevitable. Remember that this was the epoch of the "Cold War" and it was completely natural that papers publish the achievements of simple American buddies who were protecting the ideals of freedom in the face of the "Red Menace"and racked up one victory after another - this was what they got even if the reality was taking losses. The creator of the classic work "The US Air Force in Korea 1950-53", Robert Futrell, sets the number of Sabre losses in air combat in Korea as around 58. This number is found and frequently cited to us in the pages of the translation of the anthology by James Stewart, "Air Power - The Decisive Force in Korea".(11) (12) Several years later, a new figure appeared - 78. Now many Western researchers, drawing from the document "Sabre Measures (Charlie)", published by the USAF in 1970, were advised that 103 Sabres were lost in aerial combat in Korea. But even that number is wrong! In accordance with the document, the 103 Sabres lost were lost between June 1951 and July 1953. But why not for the entire war? And why do the researchers, reading from one and the same primary sources, determine a new figure every ten or fifteen years? For that reason, we can frequently not speak about the victory claimed by a Soviet pilot without having the losses admitted by the American side on the same day the claim was made. Perhaps we will find out - in another ten years.

Well put Lape and very informative. My point here is when the Soviets claimed the same amount of Sabers destroyed as actually rotated though Korea, I think its a bit more than exaggerating. Yes, both sides have exaggerated claims, but its a matter of putting into perspective which side is more believable. We in the west are flexible enough to accept change and allow updated numbers somewhat change history, those who follow this stuff in the former Soviet Union are a little less flexible.

As far as the spinning of the Mig-15. If you're engaged in aerial combat and force your enemy to do adverse maneuvers that cause the destruction of his aircraft, there is no reason why you shouldn't claim that as a kill. You don't need gunfire in aerial combat. As late as GW1 an F-15 brought down a Mig-25 by making the opponent reverse an maneuver and crash into terrain. The US pilot was credited with a kill.

In accordance with the document, the 103 Sabres lost were lost between June 1951 and July 1953. But why not for the entire war? And why do the researchers, reading from one and the same primary sources, determine a new figure every ten or fifteen years? For that reason, we can frequently not speak about the victory claimed by a Soviet pilot without having the losses admitted by the American side on the same day the claim was made. Perhaps we will find out - in another ten years.

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Sabers didn't get deployed until late 1950 early 1951 and maybe that's why the list starts in 1951, but again that leaves out some losses in late 1950. The lists change because there is access to records in both the US and former Soviet Union becoming more accurate and I think we'll see these list on the Korean War continue to change as more data become asscessible.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm this is WW 2 piston engine ?, it appears jet vs jet to me

You're right Erich, sorry - we'll move it over....

James Finnegan (P-47) vs. Adolf Galland (Me-262).

I was leading the top flight cover of P-47's that was escorting the B-26's to their target. As I gazed down, I saw 2 objects come zipping through the formation, and 2 bombers blew up immediately. I watched the 2 objects go through the bomber formation, and thought "that can't be a prop job....it's got to be one of the 262 jets."

I was at about 13,000 feet and estimated them to be at about 9-10,000. They were climbing, and I pulled a split-S towards the one that turned left, and almost ended up right on top of him - - about 75 yards away!!

I gave a 3 second burst and saw strikes on the right hand engine and wing root. I was going so fast, I went right through everything, and guessed my speed at about 450+ mph. I recorded it as a probable.

I was flying a D model Thunderbolt with a bubble canopy, a natural metal finish and a black nose. The 262 had a green and brown mottled camouflage with some specs of yellow.

That turned out to be my last flight in a P-47. My kills for the war were an FW-190 and an Me-109, in addition to the Me-262.



USAAF James Finnegan-P47



Galland led JV 44 until 26 April 1945 gaining up to seven victories flying the Me 262 jet fighter. On this day Generalleutnant Galland led 12 rocket-equipped Me 262s from München-Reim to intercept a formation of B-26 medium bombers targetting the airfield at Lechfeld. He claimed two of the bombers, but with cannon-fire rather than the rockets with which his Me 262 was armed. During his initial approach, Galland had failed to deactivate a safety switch which prevented him from firing the rockets. During his attacks on the bombers, Galland's Me 262 was struck by return fire. Disengaging from the bombers, he was bounced by a P-47 flown by 1st Lt James J Finnegan of the 50th Fighter Group, USAAF. Galland was wounded in the right knee and his aircraft received further damage. He was able to bring his crippled jet back to München-Reim and successfully land, albeit with a flat nose wheel tyre. He was forced to leap from his aircraft and take shelter because the airfield was under attack by American fighters. The wound suffered in this encounter were serious enough to end his combat flying.

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Adolf Galland




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F4U Corsair killed a MiG-15. I know that. I don't know who did it before.

Saberstrike said:

F4U Corsair killed a MiG-15. I know that. I don't know who did it before.

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Info way, way back on page 2 of this discussion. See

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/piston-engine-aircraft-jet-kills-1226-2.html

Regards,

Rich

lesofprimus said:

Yea, but that fact has been known to the majority of us "Buffs" for many many years.... I've met Yeager before, a couple of times, and the man was a buffoon.... My Grandfather actually got into an argument with him and called him several expletives, including liar....

Mr Yeager could care less about anyones assessment of his accomplishments... His own assessment of himself is all that matters.... He ever denies Welshs' claim to have broken the sound barrier first, even though there were witnesses to the sonic boom he caused....

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lesofprimus said:

Pretty harsh comments about General Yeager - he is a lot of things -cocky, opinionated, stubborn - but not a buffoon.

Shouldn't you have to have an awesome resume of personal valour, major accomplishments and superior character to proclaim Yeager a Buffoon? I have known him a long time and learned to manage my own proclivity to 'open mouth and insert foot', disagreed many times and been 'shouted down with "I was there" argument closings when I knew he was wrong. I've been offended by his abruptness and charmed with a smile and a handshake - but I respect this man greatly.

As to bragging, have any of you heard him brag about the three Migs he shot down when he was USAF Air Attache to Pakistan when Indian Migs jumped his flight of 86's? You would think a guy with his enormous 'ego' would proclaim that fact loudly...even with 'lax' security that is the vogue in today's world. Just think - an ego that large who shot down as many jets in one mission as any pilot in history?? The details are still classified as far as I know... but not a well concealed secret in the Aces community.

As to Welsh - the instruments didn't support his claim but you can get a transonic shock wave w/o the entire ship going supersonic. The point is that NOBODY from Air Force Test Command screwed Welsh out of the honor... that wasn't Yeager denying it but the USAF denying the claim.

You are entitled to your opinion but would love to see you guys engage him in a face to face debate rather than denigrate him behind his back... I just wish I had accomplished 1/10 of what he has done in his lifetime.

Regards,

Bill

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drgondog said:

lesofprimus said:

Yea, but that fact has been known to the majority of us "Buffs" for many many years.... I've met Yeager before, a couple of times, and the man was a buffoon.... My Grandfather actually got into an argument with him and called him several expletives, including liar....

Mr Yeager could care less about anyones assessment of his accomplishments... His own assessment of himself is all that matters.... He ever denies Welshs' claim to have broken the sound barrier first, even though there were witnesses to the sonic boom he caused....

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Pretty harsh comments about General Yeager - he is a lot of things -cocky, opinionated, stubborn - but not a buffoon.

Shouldn't you have to have an awesome resume of personal valour, major accomplishments and superior character to proclaim Yeager a Buffoon? I have known him a long time and learned to manage my own proclivity to 'open mouth and insert foot', disagreed many times and been 'shouted down with "I was there" argument closings when I knew he was wrong. I've been offended by his abruptness and charmed with a smile and a handshake - but I respect this man greatly.

As to bragging, have any of you heard him brag about the three Migs he shot down when he was USAF Air Attache to Pakistan when Indian Migs jumped his flight of 86's? You would think a guy with his enormous 'ego' would proclaim that fact loudly...even with 'lax' security that is the vogue in today's world. Just think - an ego that large who shot down as many jets in one mission as any pilot in history?? The details are still classified as far as I know... but not a well concealed secret in the Aces community.

As to Welsh - the instruments didn't support his claim but you can get a transonic shock wave w/o the entire ship going supersonic. The point is that NOBODY from Air Force Test Command screwed Welsh out of the honor... that wasn't Yeager denying it but the USAF denying the claim.

You are entitled to your opinion but would love to see you guys engage him in a face to face debate rather than denigrate him behind his back... I just wish I had accomplished 1/10 of what he has done in his lifetime.

Regards,

Bill

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Bill, I'm going to tell you something - I have met Yeager on several occasions and I'll flat out say it, he's an arrogant jerk and maybe baffoon could be thrown in as well. On one occasion I seen him embarrass an active duty AF Major at the Edwards Aero Club just because the Major (The club safety officer) wanted to fly a certain departure procedure out of the base (because he thought it was safer) and Yeager didn't agree with his rationale. Yeager embarrassed this man at the Test Pilot's school auditorium in front of about 100 people. I seen his outbursts on several occasions around the Antelope Valley (where I used to live) and know others in the aerospace community who hold the same opinion of him. Does he have a right to be arrogant? Perhaps. I also know (knew) Tony LeVier, the Rutans, John Sharpe, Fritz Fulton, Paul Metz, and Tom Morganfield to name a few (and I'm not bragging here) and although their accomplishments don't come close to Yeager, none of them behave with the same rudeness and arrogance I seen Yeager display several times. I wish I've flown half the aircraft he did and accomplished one quarter of what he did, but with that said if he treated me with the same disrespect I seen him do to others, I would not of had any problem telling him to his face where he could go - then or now!

And with that said I suggest you look around this forum more and find out who the mods are and some of our backgrounds and our connections to some of these people. I don't care if you're the Red Baron, talking down, shouting down and being a plain jerk to people who look up to you eclipses the highest accomplishments.

And with that said I suggest you look around this forum more and find out who the mods are and some of our backgrounds. You are entitled to your opinions but I would suggest trading lightly when you throw an insult at one of the mods, it's not appreciated. I hope I make myself perfectly clear.

Yes you do.

You make it perfectly CLEAR that because you are a 'Mod' you want me to tread lightly when a Moderator with ZERO qualifications on a par (or within light years) with Yeager calls him a Buffoon.

YOU as a Mod make it CLEAR that you don't like him - I'm ok with that - there are times when I don't like him either - but back to the single point.

Neither YOU - despite your 'lofty' role as 'Moderator', nor the other "Mod's" have the qualifications to describe him as a Buffoon" A Clown, a Jester, a Witless person making coarse jokes" - you have the RIGHT but not the QUAL... nor does any other Moderator on this forum.

You for example, how many missions have you flown over enemy territory in the same high threat environment (If you flew w/355TFW or one of the Thud wings in Nam my hat is off to you - but still doesn't give You the Qual to call him a Buffoon!), or flew ships that were as likely to blow up as match a take off with a landing? And did it for years? Forget about flying 'as many ships as he did - think about how many times he was the First to fly that ship?

Character assassinations such as questioning his integrity in his claims fits in that category also.


Good Day Sir!


Bill Marshall

PS If you have the cojones to let this stand rather than just delete the thread - my hat is off to you - at least you have integrity.

drgondog said:

And with that said I suggest you look around this forum more and find out who the mods are and some of our backgrounds. You are entitled to your opinions but I would suggest trading lightly when you throw an insult at one of the mods, it's not appreciated. I hope I make myself perfectly clear.

Yes you do.

You make it perfectly CLEAR that because you are a 'Mod' you want me to tread lightly when a Moderator with ZERO qualifications on a par (or within light years) with Yeager calls him a Buffoon.

YOU as a Mod make it CLEAR that you don't like him - I'm ok with that - there are times when I don't like him either - but back to the single point.

Neither YOU - despite your 'lofty' role as 'Moderator', nor the other "Mod's" have the qualifications to describe him as a Buffoon" A Clown, a Jester, a Witless person making coarse jokes" - you have the RIGHT but not the QUAL... nor does any other Moderator on this forum.

You for example, how many missions have you flown over enemy territory in the same high threat environment (If you flew w/355TFW or one of the Thud wings in Nam my hat is off to you - but still doesn't give You the Qual to call him a Buffoon!), or flew ships that were as likely to blow up as match a take off with a landing? And did it for years? Forget about flying 'as many ships as he did - think about how many times he was the First to fly that ship?

Character assassinations such as questioning his integrity in his claims fits in that category also.


Good Day Sir!


Bill Marshall

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Pal, I could give a rat's @ss how many missions he, you or anyone flew during any war at any time. His antics make him a baffoon just like the same way you are defending him as if he was some rockstar and you're a teenage groopie in heat. Get over it - the man is an idiot, baffoon, jerk @sshole etc. And I would call anyone on this if they treated me or anyone around me with the same disrespect I seen him display toward others.

drgondog said:

PS If you have the cojones to let this stand rather than just delete the thread - my hat is off to you - at least you have integrity.

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AND YES THIS POST WILL STAND HERE AND MAYBE YOU GET GET MR. YEAGER TO READ WHAT SOME OF HIS "FANS" REALLY THINK ABOUT HIM. I'LL NEVER WEAR HIS JOCKSTRAP BUT WILL NEVER RESPECT HIM AS A PERSON DESPITE HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS...

AND YES I HAVE COJONES 2 OF THEM TO BE EXACT

At least the Moderator gene pool seems to be consistent!

It seems that your respect is commanded by people 'you like' not what they accomplish in life. Most people like you get their jollies tearing other people down rather than focus on What You Can Do To Make a Difference - are you like that?

Who sounds more like a Rock Star Groupie? Your prerogative - it's your forum you can 'do or say' what ever you wish.. just get over breathing your own air too much - "sayin' it don't make it so".

Regards,

Bill

drgondog said:

At least the Moderator gene pool seems to be consistent!

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As consistant as the @ssholes we have to deal with here.

drgondog said:

It seems that your respect is commanded by people 'you like' not what they accomplish in life. Most people like you get their jollies tearing other people down rather than focus on What You Can Do To Make a Difference - are you like that?

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I never degraded his accomplishments, the man is one of the greatest pilots to ever fly, but at the same time the man is a jerk, @sshole, etc. and I would tell him to his face, the same way I'm telling you you're being an @sshole. Does that bother you?!?!?

drgondog said:

Who sounds more like a Rock Star Groupie? Your prerogative - it's your forum you can 'do or say' what ever you wish.. just get over breathing your own air too much - "sayin' it don't make it so".Regards,

Bill

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You're an idiot, I suggest you go play in another sand box....

It's time to pack this in Bill, now. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. You may not agree with that, and that is fine. But if you have a problem with it, I suggest you either take it to the private message function of the website, or get back on topic. This is the only time I will say this.

Now its my turn....

Sounds like Mr. Bill likes having Yeagers **** in his mouth... Doenst like mean people saying bad things about his boy.... Yeager was and is a prick, and if I chose the word buffoon to describe him, so be it.... Go cry in ur Rice Crispies Billy-boy, cause u'll find ZERO sympathy for that self-inflated jerk...

Now, as to ur little rant:

Shouldn't you have to have an awesome resume of personal valour, major accomplishments and superior character to proclaim Yeager a Buffoon?

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Yup, and I do.... Since u didnt bother to find out who runs this forum, I am a former Navy SEAL who served with distinction in several theatres of conflict... I've been awarded for Valor and been recognized by Admirals for my dedication and conviction... My father was a Special Forces bastard who served 2 1/2 tours in Nam, including a battlefiled commision.... My Grandfather was William Case, the third highest scoring Blacksheep from VMF-214...

Ive been around the Ace Pilots Assoc for many many years and rubbed elbows and kneecaps with alot of my Grandfathers pals and buddies.... EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS BROUGHT UP THE SUBJECT OF YEAGER SAYS THE SAME THING...

I do not disrespect his combat record, nor do I belittle his contribution to the success of aerial combat.... He wouldnt do that about my combat record, nor would u..... I have a problem with his holier than thou, piss on u turds attitude that even u have been privvy to.... That sh!t dont fly....

Now that my little lesson is over, let me say one last thing to u so u will fully understand.... Ur attack at Joe is unwarranted and if u continue will lead to infractions and banning... WE DO NOT TOLERATE BULLSH!T FROM ANY MEMBER HERE, WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE WORKING ON A BOOK OR LIVE 30 MILES AWAY FORM ONE OF OUR MODS.... Insulting the Mods is a one way ticket pal... Take whatever direction u want here, but be advised, Ill kick ur @ss to the curb in a New York minute if u u go there again.... Mods here deserve respect because we're Mods and run the place with an iron fist... Dont like it, walk....

It seems that your respect is commanded by people 'you like' not what they accomplish in life.

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Respect isnt earned by an individuals life accomplishments, but by what qualities an individual respects someone for... I dont go around bragging about myself, telling everyone I know how many people I killed and how many claymores I triggered.... I dont need the popularity or exposure... Yeager did and does... "Look everyone, I'm special, look what I accomplished, u didnt do sh!t compared to me so fu*k off".... People like Yeager with that attitude can blow me, as well as all those cronies like urself that like nothing more than sucking off "Heros"....

Opinions a rampant on the internet, and if u have as much "experience" at doing what we do, then u should know that and not get ur panties in a bunch whenever someone insults ur ****-buddy... I got a box of Kleenex if u need some tissues to wipe ur tears, but take ur whining @ss back to whatever board u crawled out from and tell them I said "Fu ck Yeager"!!!

Oh boy...

I was hoping this would get defused.

.

I'm not sure if this is going to help matters but ............I'd sure LIKE TO ADD FROM THE HISTORICAL POINT GUYS in the very near future...........

ok game over lets agree then to disagree about one fighter pilots attributes

where was I now, January of 45 right ?