PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS

KraziKanuK · May 14, 2005

262 losses to fighters

Oct 12 - WNr 170064, Uffz Edmond Delatowski, 3./KG51 - Tempest V, PO Bob Cole, 3 Sqd

Oct 13 - FjFw Edgar Junghans, 3./KG51 - P-51, Lt Huie H Lamb, 78thFG

Nov 1 - Ofah Willi Banzhaff, Cdo Nowotny - P-51, Lt William Gerbe Jr 352cd FG/P-47, Lt Walter Groce, 56thFG

Nov 4 - Ofah Banzhaff, Cdo Nowotny, MIA near Luneburg

Nov 6 - Chuckie Yeager's claim of WNr 110389 disagrees with German account > Lt Sprangenburg, Cdo Nowotny, crash landing after being hit by own flak though Yeager was on his tail - a/c salvaged

Ofw Heinz Lennartz, Cdo Nowotny - Lt William Quinn, 361stFG - possible

Nov 7 - Lt Schall, , Cdo Nowotny - Lt James Kenny, 357thFG

Nowotny - Lt Richard Stevens, 364th FG

Anonymous · May 14, 2005

Yeager's guncam footage shows hits being scored. I'm not sure if this is the same 262 though.

Damage caused by M23 hits might well have been misread as "own flak".

=S=

Lunatic

Erich · May 14, 2005

Huie Lambs victory is actually on October 15 , 1944 flying a P-47 pictured....

I will include his reprot sent to me by him on Sunday/Monday

Erich · May 14, 2005

Also the Gerbe Groce affair was on 2 November 44. Groce has proved that GErbe only added the finishing touches to Groces certain kill as the P-51 pilot from the 352nd charged in front of the 56th fg Jugs .50's and at the last moment Groce pulled back or he would of scratched 1 P-51. Groce has said his cine films say it all..............well I am going to see him and the films this August

Leutenant Walter Groce of the 56th fg

plan_D · May 15, 2005

339th FG got 12 Me-262 kills, 2 probables and 19 damaged by the wars end.

KG(J) 54 lost 6 Me-262s on Feb. 9th 1945.
April 10th, 1945, the Luftwaffe lost 20 'jets' .

That's all I've got on -262 losses. I don't even know if they're right.

lesofprimus · May 15, 2005

Bad day for being an Ace on April 10th, 1945.......

Erich · May 15, 2005

hold on guys and lets do this in chronological order ok ? trying to find Lambs report....

another shot of Huie and the Jug

Erich · May 15, 2005

actually for 10 April 45 the Germans lost 27 Me 262's but claimed over 28 US bombers and Mustangs. The Jagdgeschwader sent up the largest contingent of Jets on this date during the war with 55 from Stab., I. and III. gruppe. 8 bailed out and 5 were killed during this engagement, the others must have been ground strafed at their fields. Walter Shcuck as an example was shot down but after shooting down 4 B-17's. Another ace Schall was killed as well as Walter Wagner of 1st staffel and Walter Weaver also an ace.

lesofprimus · May 15, 2005

And Erich has proven my statement to be true........... Bad day to be an Ace.....

KraziKanuK · May 15, 2005

Erich,

the Nov 1 date came from Smith/Creek.

Dec 3 - WNr 110385, Obtl Joachim Velet, 1./KG51 - Tempest V, FlLt Garland

Dec 9 - WNr 500009, 9K+IM, Stabsfw Hans Zander, 4./KG51 - Lt Edwards, 352cdFG

Dec 17 - WNr 110501, 9K+BP, Lt Wolfgang Lubking, 6./KG51 - Tempest, W/C Wray, 122 Wing

Dec 22 - WNr 500027, JG7(??) - P-51, Lt McGlaufin/FO Scales, 308thFS

Dec 23 - Fw Wilhelm Wilkenloh, I./JG7, - Tempest V

Dec 25 - WNr 110594, 9K+MM, Oblt Hans-Georg Lamle, 4./KG51 - Spitfire, FlLt Boyle, 411 Sqd

plan_D · May 15, 2005

Are we talking JG7 for the 10th April, 1945?

Erich · May 15, 2005

plan in what context ? The 55 jets came from them alone but I./KG 54 was also up in the air and claimed victories. A bit more research shows that some 38 Me 262's were destroyed, manyu on the ground. The Jet kommando-(N.)10./NJG 11 at Burg lost 3 jets on a raid. 6./Naufklarungruppe 6 lost 3 jets also on the Burg raid.

The four KG 54 jets shsot down were by US fighters.

Also a side note, Walter Shcuk was shot down by 20th fg pilot Lt. Jope Petersburs and I have a lengthy report on the 10 april 45 mission directly from him.

KK yes you maybe right about 1 November as Gerbe and harker from the 352nd state this. harker came in after Gerbe lost the jet and states he almost shot the tail off the jet. Groce on the other hand from his log book says it was the 2nd of November and that he shot the engine out of the jet was performing coup de grace on the Me right before Gerbe flew in front of his guns. Again Groce has invited me up to see his gun cam footage for proof this summer and I am looking forward to meeting another 56th fg pilot. Gabreski/Zemke were characters when I met up with them on two deperate occassions.....

plan_D · May 15, 2005

Alright, so 38 were destroyed altogether but do you know how many were lost in the air? I know by that time Allied pilots had worked out how to beat the Me-262, like when it was coming out of a diving pass or when it was slowing down to aim...so, they must have got a lot in the air on April 10th...

Erich · May 15, 2005

I really should start a whole new thread just on 10th of April as it was the killing day for JG 7 jets. Many were caught on the landing pattern from what I have read. The problem with this raid in being covered by the German side is that not all JG 7 pilots are listed. will have to dig. Maybe KK has Smith/Creeks last volume covering the late spring of 45 but I do not at this time. A case in point. JG 7 lost 19 pilots shot down, 5 of them wounded, the others KIA. My three references do not say the pilots names but could find them I suppose, neither shot down by what ? fighters and were they in the air in combat or on landing pattern which I suppose for at leat 7-8 of them minimum.. Schall for one landed after fighter combat with P-51's at Parchim and his jet rolled into a bomb crater and it exploded killing him........

it appears that during the raid on Parchim by P-51 strafers that 3 Me 262's from 2./JG 7 was destroyed so this is included also in the figure I gave of total losses.

~ E

lesofprimus · May 15, 2005

Meeting Hub Zemke must have been a special treat... Ive met Gabby before, but was never fortunate enough to meet Zemke... What a great meeting that musta been......

Erich · May 15, 2005

one of the meetings was actually both 56thfg aces and friend and artist Jerry Crandall. Jerry had just painted a special tribute to one of the 56th fg aces that had passed away and both Gabby and Hub were there to sign the print. I wans't interested in the print but had them sign several books from me with tributes besdies purchasing Hub's own samll paperback. those two were chracters to be sure. I'll try to get my pics re-scanned to show on the forums some time. this was back in June of 1993 in sisters, Oregon. Only about 50 people attended this special weekend so I was able to get real nosey with these two fine vets......

E ~

plan_D · May 15, 2005

Have you met anyone from the 339th FG, Erich? They were the fourth (?) highest scoring FG in Europe and they were in service almost a year less.

Erich · May 15, 2005

I was scheduled to go back to Bend Or and meet up with one of their pilots and he was actually the instigator of putting the 339th fg newletter together but sadly he died before we could hook up. I have chatted by both phone and the net with friend and jet killer Steve Ananian. Steve has been kind enough to send me his 262 Jet kill report and even a very long and lengthy service record-pilot logs copy.

plan_D · May 15, 2005

I've heard of him, Lt. Ananian right? 1 Me-262 kill and two probables?

Erich · May 15, 2005

correct friend. He had the first jet kill in the 339th fg. He is a very kind man, and we have had some fun talks about landscaping of all things since that is part of my profession.....

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