Prince Heinrich Alexander Ludwig Peter zu Sayn-Wittgenstein

[Airframes]

Thanks Erich. I had doubts about the crash-landed JU88, as even the caption in the book states that it's an A4., which is fairly evident by the twin gun mounting and the shape of the rear canopy. However, the actual caption reads; "In 1942 Leutnant Rokker of 2/NJG2 crash-landed in this Ju88A4, Work No. 5664 at Catania in Siciliy.The dinghy is being removed from its stowage in the top of the rear fuselage".
The second photo, with Georg Frieben under the nose of the '88, only states that "Rokker's JU88 R4 + FR was stationed at Castelretrano in Sicily on 9 June 1943." It doesn't actually say that the machine pictured is his.
Incidentally, the source of the pics was the english language edition of 'Die deutsche Nachtjagd', W.Held and H. Nauroth, Motorbuch Verlag, 1982. Shows how long it's been on my shelves!

 

[Lucky13]

Great pics Terry! 8) I think that I've seen the top two before, they look familiar....
Did the NJG's carry any unit badges? I take it that those victories with a bar between them are showing multiple kills, right?

Is this book worth buying?

 

[Erich]

yes each NJG had the Englandblitz in a different form on the shield, but worn only and generally in the early war years. I./NJG 1 and even NJGr 10 which had some He 219's had the small version of the blitz shield and then they were removed.

Personally I would not get that book but save to get the latest two volumes NJWD, but if you want more of the English accounts of the night air war then the Martin B./Theo B. book will fit the need

 

[Lucky13]

Thanks for the advice Erich! Will keep that one on afterburner for now then. Another question, modelling though....who sells correct styled and colored Luftwaffe codes, letters and numbers for this in 1/48?

 

[Airframes]

Decals for the Luftwaffe codes used to be available from Microscale, Jan, but they'll be as rare as hen's teeth now, I would think. That info you posted recently, about Pedinghaus Decals, might prove worthwhile. I had a look at their web-site and definitley saw Luftwaffe numbers, in various colours, but can't be sure re letters. If you're stuck, let me know which number/letter combination(s) you need, and I'll see if I have any to spare. I'm probably OK for black/white and a limited number of yellow; any other colours and I think you'd be out of luck(y) !

 

[Airframes]

Forgot to add, re the 'victory bars'. I haven'y looked closely at that pic, but, the style of Abshcuss Zeichen could vary slightly, unit to unit. For example, a victory might be marked as a single white, or black bar, above which would be a circle and date, possibly aircraft type. Sometimes, this circle could be in the centre of the bar. Often, the circle would be the 'roundel' of the victim, denoting Air Force, eg RAF red/white/blue, USAAF white star on blue disc, etc.
Another variation might be a bar, or slash, through the vertical bar, denoting a 'shoot out', meaning an aircraft damaged and forced from its formation, possibly even a 'possible' kill. Twin slashes could be a shared kill. Yet another variation, a double slash, or perhaps more common, a double vertical bar, would denote a twin, or multi-engined aircraft victory. A vertical bar with an arrowhead would mean an air to air victory, whilst the arrow on the bottom of the bar would mean an aircraft destroyed on the ground, and so on.
As I say, there were various permutations, depending on unit, period etc., and I think Erich would be able to give a clearer explanation regarding the victory marks within the various NJG's.

 

[Erich]

much of the victory system hash markings was up to ground crew and the pilot and there was quite a wide array of markings including adding the "day time" RK for those that received the coveted award. underlining multiple kills was rare and unique as usually they were just dated underneath and possibly the Allied symbol attached . US, RAF and Soviet. I mention US because some 130 US heavies are claimed as shot down during 43 early 44 by the Nachtjagd when they performed the silly and stupid day time defense ops and got their butts cleaned in those slow-mo twin engines.

here is an example of a NJG 1 aces tail

 

[Lucky13]

Blasted I say old boy! Which type of radar would be correct for these three gentlemen then? No expert, but I think that C-6 the FuG 202 Lichtenstein B/C and the G-6 has the Lichtenstein FuG 220... Same as the Bf 110 it seems.... But, as I said, I'm faaaar from being sure.

 

[Lucky13]

Cheers fellas, much obliged! Any idea what or whose machine that is Erich, is it 740039, a Bf 110 maybe? Why is it that two of the bars lack the roundel and black diagonal line?

 

[Erich]

yes Lucky correct on your assumptions. I am rather meagre on my early war stuff really.

the chap with the 5 fingers out indicating 5 kills is ace and RK-EL winner Josef Kraft when he was in 8./NJG 6 flying Bf 110G-4's with FuG 220 set. end of thewar he had 129 missions, 12 by day with 56 kills, 4 of them Soviet. He served in 4 different NJG's finally as Staffelkapitän of 12./NJG 1. He passed away in 1993.

as to why the 2 hash marks are not complete am not sure, a year or so ago I had this pic really blown up to follow up on the victory dates which then proven whom the pilot was. this is on the cover of one of my WW2 era mags.

 

[Airframes]

Done a bit more digging and come up with a couple of things. First, the colour pic shows a version of the England Blitz shield, in this case on the nose of the JU88R-1 at the RAF Museum, Hendon. This A/C, WkNr 360043 arrived at Dyce (Aberdeen, Scotland) on 9th May 1943, flown by Oblt. Schmidt of 11/NJG3. The defection had been arranged via British Intelligence, and the aircraft revealed many of the secrets of the Lichtenstein radar equipment etc. Somewhere (!) I've got more pics of this A/C, including some of my own, and the story behind this flight, and a similar, but unintentional landing of another NJG JU88 in Britain.
A bit more on the Abschuss zeichen; the diagonal black bar within the vertical white bar signified a night victory. As Erich pointed out, the variations in style etc were down to the pilot/ground crew, and some showed silhouettes of the aircraft downed, eg. 2 engines, 4 engines. However, if the victory was over a Mosquito, this was considered an achievement, and the white bar would include the title 'Mosquito'.
The second pic shows some variations on the fins/rudders of Bf110's. The pic lower right is of the fin of Maj. Wolfgang Schnaufer's Bf110G-4, preserved in the Imperial War Museum, London.
The third set of pics is interesting, as it shows the same machine depicted in the wartime magazine-cover photo posted by Erich. These pics show Oblt. Leopold Fellerer (big bloke!), Kommandeur of II/NJG5, on 14th January 1944, with the score on his Bf110G at 22 victories. Could it be, Erich, that the aircraft was used by more than two people/units? The reason I ask is, that the final pic shows Leutnant Kraft in front of his Bf109G-10 of 7/JG300.
Perhaps the Propaganda unit used the tail of the '110 as Kraft's '109? This is only a suggestion as, I am sure you are aware, quite a few similar anomalies occured with the press/service publications of the time, when captions of photos described a particular event/action etc, but the photo showed something totally different. For instance, a fairly well know pic, published in a German paper during the war, purporting to show (German) troops examining the downed wreck of a British bomber, when the aircraft was a JU88 of 'Totenkopf'!
It will be interesting to establish what's what, as the credentials of the authors of the book these pics came from, and their sources, appear to be sound. Consultants, who also provided some of the photos, included Jabs, Falk, Drewes and Nacke.
Anyway, whatever the outcome, I hope these pics prove useful Jan !

 

[Erich]

Terry

thanks for the pics posted

I royally screwed up and looked at the mag again and inside it says Leopold Fellerer....must be my meds again

Fellerer became Gruppenkommandeur on the date that my cousin Hauptmann Hans Baer was killed when his left engine shut down while he was flying over their airfield and his crew bailed out and Hans stayed with the 110 which dropped like a stone...Dec, 21, 1943. Leopold F. replaced him

the two blank hash marks are for 2 US bombers.

the photo I presented is his arm in white flight jacket with 5 fingers showing his highest scoring eve of 5 kills on January 20/21, 1944. he lived to the end of the war with 41 kills to his credit and was killed in a small Cessna A/C accident in 1968.

Kraft from 7./JG 300 is a different chap altogether ...............

oh well ........

 

[Wayne Little]

Some bl**dy good reading so far Guys, great info!

 

[Wurger]

I'm with Wayne.A lot of interesting infos here.

 

[Airframes]

Thanks for the clarification Erich, and not your fault, we all make the odd mistake! At least I now know the book is correct. As I'm sure you've found, there are sometimes conflicts of information regarding the same photographs etc. This can be very frustrating!
Very interesting background you've provided, and my commiserations regarding your cousin; a very brave man to stay with the aircraft to aid the escape of his crew.
Terry.

 

[Erich]

here is something for our Dutch friends a request actually for some photos .........

IJsselstein is a German wargrave cemetery in Holland: there are famous graves there such as the Prinz zu Sayn Witgenstein (Block TH row 1 GRAVE NUMBER 2.) Paul Semrau of NJG 2 is buried there too. To be noticed: Ofw Rietscher who died the same night as the Prinz is also buried there.( BM 4 92)

any takers ??

E ~

 

[Erich]

heres another pic after war someone thought it would be neat to cut out the cross......why ?

the pic may come out pretty small

 

[Wurger]

So here is a little bigger...

 

[Erich]

thanks W ~ and since you enlarged the photo does it appear as though there are 4 Soviet stars showing above the hash marks ? at one time I had a full on fuselage photo of this bird, I still may-will look, this could be a NJG 6 crate ? the code after the Balkenkreuz is: ?? + NR

 

[Wurger]

You'r welcome.