Prince Heinrich Alexander Ludwig Peter zu Sayn-Wittgenstein

[Lucky13]

Would Dragon's 1/48 Ju 88 C-6 or G-6 be correct for his machine? Does any pics exist of it? Any ideas how he was KIA?

What type of Bf 110 did Hptm Heinz Roekker fly, was it a G-4 and is Tamiya's He 219A-7 useful for Hptm Werner Baake's machine?

 

[Airframes]

There's a possibility I MIGHT have a shot of Princ Alex.., Bob, for short, machine. I'll check it out and let you know. I may also have an article, or a passage in a book about the chap, but not sure if I've still got it. As for the rest, sounds like a question for Erich?

 

[Erich]

geez Lucky that is a mouthful of questions !! the Prince first did not allow any photos taken of A/C while he was group CO in any NJG. though there are many of him. there is a new book released on the man in Lippe Weissenfeld just published, not sure if his C-6 is pictured or not, there are many different camo scenarios for that. He was KIA before he ever recieved the G-6 crate. There is actually some speculation as to whether he mysteriously rammed or shot down his Halifax victim and it crashed on top of him or he was shot down by the tail gunner. also there has been talk he was shot down by a Bomber Command night fighter.....

Rökker flew an F model 110 and not sure about a Bf 110G-4 as his NJG 2 received the Ju 88C-6.

Baake flew the A-2 as fact. not sure of the A-7

 

[Wurger]

Nice info here Erich.THX for posting.
I have gone through some sites and on Wiki found that Prinz Alex flown some Ju-88C-6s marked with C9+AE and C9+DE.Also I found the profile and a pic of the C9+DE machine fin and rudder.

 

[Airframes]

I knew you'd have the answers Erich! Great stuff, as usual!
Nice profile and pic Wojtek.
The Halifax incident rings a bell; I might still have an article in an old copy of Fly Past magazine covering this. I'll have a trawl through the remins of 25+ years worth of copies!!

 

[Lucky13]

Cheers fellas! I'm sitting on these machines and a 110 G2/R3. What's the main difference between an F and G variant of 110 and the 219A-2 and the -7?

Also, I found that OWL does the Prinze's 88' in 1/48, question is though, are the decals correct?

 

[Wurger]

I think that the main difference between F and G version of Bf-110 were engines.The F series was equipped with DB-601F but the G one with DB-605B or DB-605A

 

[Erich]

Wittgenstein flew a C-6 in NJG 2 coded R4+XM in January 1944 he was Gruppenkommandeur of IV./NJG 5 in the Ost flying a C-6 coded C9+DE in the camo of sorts that you have on your decal sheet- early 1943. again I have no photos complete of his crates just two with the Prince standing in front of the nose. Still think there is much artist interpretation for profile work.

Rökker flew a C-2 coded R4+CK with white ? band on an all black fuselage in 1942 while a short stint with his gruppen on the Italien front. he may have also had the typ;ical med. squiggle pattern painted on his crate as well.

the 110F has the older engines with pointed nose cap, the G updated engines the larger rounded prop and increased intake, exhaust shrouds fitted. the G has a larger rounded nose but housed the upper 3cm twins and typcial lower nosed 2cm cannons. Tail fins are different as well on the G caompared to the F.

He 219A-2 had less refined engies the A-7 had more power and larger intakes, the wings were even more tapered to a point the A-7 had the latest radar gadgets though I./NJG 1 machines often did not have rear warning radar fitted which did not fair well with that gruppens crews when Mossies were about. there is some question that if the A-7 actually saw any operational serivec, NJG 1 had them on the field at wars end and so did NJG 3 but NJG 3 never used the He in combat.

I am stating this info really all from my fickle memory but ............when others post more text then more comment

 

[Lucky13]

What the....where did the pics come from?? They weren't there earlier when I posted..! Cheers Wojtek!

Thanks Erich! If he flew the R4+XM and the C9+DE, where does OWL get the idea to the +AE on this decal sheet from?

A C-2 you say? Then a Eduard would do, maybe even better then? Didn't Rökker score multiple kills during one night, was 5 or 6, when was that? Or am I way off the track...

 

[Wurger]

Jan this is form Wikipedia :

Heinrich served from mid-1941 until his death in 1944. Zu Sayn-Wittgenstein was an exponent of the Ju 88C-6 nightfighter; at one point he was the Gruppenkommander of part of NJG 5 on the Eastern Front, using two aircraft equipped with FuG 202 Lichtenstein B/C or FuG 212 Lichtenstein C-1: C9+AE and a streamlined, stripped aircraft, C9+DE.

Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Erich]

In NJG 5 the Prince may have flown +AE. he pretty much flew what he wanted, he may have had a fav A/C then maybe not. In his position he could literally tell his stab pilots to step down while he took their A/C for a spin. Again I would be curious at the new publication that has been written about him supposed to have unseen pics........aircraft maybe ?

Rökker had multiple kills I know that for fact from his missions in the Ju 88G-6 from Fall of 44 till wars end, as to early claims in thew ar I would have to really dig them out. 6 kills reported on the night of Feb. 21, 1945. 6 kills on the night of March 24, 1944. 5 kills on the night of June 7, 1944.
Rökkers first multiple night was on August 24, 1943 over Berlin with 2 Lancasters to his credit, nothing before that date as to two or more victories.......... sorry for going backwards on ya with the data.

anyone have the earlier book Laurels for a Prince W. ? published what 4-5 years ago, that would help of course as the Wiki references are not up to date.

this may add to the confusion, the un-released book I am talking about.........seems the atuhor still does not have the info on how the Prince was killed even though his crew bailed out and survived...........wonder why they were not interviewed as they made it till wars end or so I thought.

Ian Allan Publishing*»*Superstore*»*Aviation*»*Military Aviation*»*Future Titles*»*PRINCES OF DARKNESS

another thing if interested is the huge volumes NJWD by T. Boiten, mine has been paid and is shipped so will look up the infos after Christmas as I am sure the books will not come before then.

sorry for multiple edits but my info on his service is a bit screwed up for the Princ W. In January 44 he was Kommodre of NJG 2; the profiles could actually be all wrong with the codes and time frames. he was in NJG 5 in 1943 then went to I./NJG 100 on August 1st of 43. August 15th he was CO of II./NJG 3. on December 1, 1943 he was in II./NJG 2........see how messed up the info can become ?

 

[Lucky13]

Thanks Wojtek and Erich, much obliged! As for the book, I'll be ordering that one...! 8) Thanks for the heads up!

I also found these, which I think would be interesting to have.... 8)

 

[Erich]

those are the two volumes I have listed in the books/mags section, as well as the posting above yours these are termed the NJWD's. Mine were ordered directly from the publisher as NO one will carry them in the States so overseas for us Yanks is the only way to go. prepare for a hefty sum, around $ 190.00 which includes shipping.

but as with all things if the information is inside and you are serious in your searches then you've got to make the decision. -- I did

 

[Lucky13]

Oh, right.... NJWD...! I saw the price on this side of the pond is 40 quid each....

Any idea what kind of 88' and 110' that other Prince, Hptm Prinz Egmont zur Lippe-Weissenfeld flew and the codes?

Thanks again!!

 

[Airframes]

Erich, your knowledge astounds me yet again! Great information, and I agree with you on the subject of books. I have a fairly extensive library, mainly of hard-back books which, I admit, most of which were purchased some years ago. I am of the opinion that, if there is something you really need/want in the way of information then, if possible, buy the book when you see it. That way, you won't be kicking yourself years later when you need the info and can no longer obtain the book! I've lost count of the number of books I have bought just for one photo, or one tiny snippet of detail, but it's good to know that the reference is there, on the shelf, for future use for other pieces of info etc.
Thing is, I've just looked at my shelves, and I think I need more room!
Is modelling educational? Certainly, when Erich is around!
Thanks for the gen, Erich!
Terry.

 

[Lucky13]

Modelling educational? D*mn straight it is...! 8) With all the knowledge that Erich, Wojtek, yourself Terry and many other here have, that knowledge is priceless! With all this, the kits stop being just another model, they become something much more, at least if you ask me...you know the what, when, where and why...etc.

 

[Erich]

well your all welcome, think the knowledge on this forum is pretty vast everyone has their specialties.

Lippe-W. flew different A/c he could of flown Ju 88C's while in 5./NJG 2 where he racked up several victories. He also bounced from unit to other units like the other Prince finally in February of 44 he was CO of all of NJG 5. While visiting his old III./NJG 1 he and his crew were killed when they smashed into the ground on landing in terrible low-visibility weather. Bf 110G-4 coded C9+CD, werk. nummer 720010. would be interesting if the tail of this bird was photographed with all 51 kills > that title I listed on both Princes may just have it included ........ ?

 

[Airframes]

Only found these so far, Jan. You might have already seen them, but I thought they might be of interest. Still searching for pics of his aircraft.
First pic, Hpt. Prinz zu Sayr-Wittgenstein, next to fin of his JU88, victories include five in the east.
Next, shot of him with '110 in the background, no other details available.
Third, his Bf110, crash-landed at Venlo, Holland, late 1943.
Next two are of Rokker's kites. Wk.Nr 5664, after crash-landing at Catania, Sicily, 1942.
Rokker's JU88 R4 + FR, Casteletrano, Sicily, June 1943. Georg Frieben, Observer, on left, Crew Chief at right.

 

[Erich]

Terry :

the lat image may not be Rökkers although his Bordfünker CArlos Nugent posed single in front of the machine. the shot above that one is NOt Rökkers as it is an A-4 at Catania, Bes. Oberleutnant E. Jakob on a bad landing approach.

the top pic of the Prince was a series of prop-posed shot with Werner Streib of NJG 1 with him

 

[lesofprimus]

Very interesting stuff fellas, great info as usual Erich....