Questions about the Vietnam War

[timshatz]

And I personally find this profound:

Kim Phuc, the little nine year old Vietnamese girl running naked from the napalm strike near Trang Bang on 8 June 1972, was burned by Americans bombing Trang Bang. We all know that pic... she's tragically running naked with her arms in the air supposedly after a US napalm strike against her innocent villiage?

No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc. The planes doing the bombing near the village were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground.

The Vietnamese pilot who dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States. Even the AP photographer, Nick Ut, who took the picture was Vietnamese. The incident in the photo took place on the second day of a three day battle between the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) who occupied the village of Trang Bang and the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) who were trying to force the NVA out of the village.

Recent reports in the news media that an American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc are incorrect. There were no Americans involved in any capacity. "We (Americans) had nothing to do with controlling VNAF," according to Lieutenant General (Ret) James F. Hollingsworth, the Commanding General of TRAC at that time. Also, it has been incorrectly reported that two of Kim Phuc's brothers were killed in this incident. They were Kim's cousins not her brothers.

Matt! Are you saying the Media got it wrong or lied to us?! No, say it isn't so! I find it almost impossible to believe an organization as truthful and righteous as the NYT, Washington Post or La TImes would ever, ever print something that wasn't true....

 

[Pisis]

I find it almost impossible to believe an organization as truthful and righteous as the NYT, Washington Post or La TImes would ever, ever print something that wasn't true....

Forget about those. The UN is the most truthful and righteous of all on Earth!

 

[renrich]

Matt, thanks for your post as I was getting ready to write one similar regarding the minority casualty rate in the war. Your info about the little girl and the napalm strike was most interesting also. IMO, although a free press is essential in our society, the news media is the biggest negative influence in our world today, even worse than politicians, who are almost as bad as child molesters.

 

[ToughOmbre]

Matt, thanks for your post as I was getting ready to write one similar regarding the minority casualty rate in the war. Your info about the little girl and the napalm strike was most interesting also. IMO, although a free press is essential in our society, the news media is the biggest negative influence in our world today, even worse than politicians, who are almost as bad as child molesters.

Amen to that!

TO

 

[syscom3]

Yup. One of my favorites is Coppola's Full Metal Jacket...

Stanly Kubrick directed Full Metal Jacket

Francis Ford Cuppola directed Apocalypse Now.

 

[timshatz]

Forget about those. The UN is the most truthful and righteous of all on Earth!

And most expensive. Ever been to Geneva? Wonderful place but full to the brim with NGOs. Some are good, do their job and keep a low profile (Red Cross for example). But others are are just sucking oxygen, wasting cash and driving up prices. That, in this case, is the UN.

But that is just my opinion on it.

 

[Njaco]

Sys, ya beat me to it!!

Stay away from "Tigerland"! "Green Berets" would have been better if set in WWII.
Good movie is "184 Charlie Mopic" or "Go Tell the Spartans".

 

[Pisis]

Stanly Kubrick directed Full Metal Jacket

Francis Ford Cuppola directed Apocalypse Now.

Oyvey, you're right I'm confused. Anyway, love them both.

 

[Pisis]

And most expensive. Ever been to Geneva? Wonderful place but full to the brim with NGOs. Some are good, do their job and keep a low profile (Red Cross for example). But others are are just sucking oxygen, wasting cash and driving up prices. That, in this case, is the UN.

But that is just my opinion on it.

Been there, done that. I have the same opinion of the Red Cross as of the UN, generally. Both more politically correct then my grandma...

 

[tyrodtom]

When I was in the Army, and AF most of the tours were 13 months, not 1 year. Just a small detail, but that extra 30 days seen like a lot when you were there.
I think they might have thought it tool 2-3 weeks to process in , get a little area retraining, get acclimitised, and get to your unit. Then one week to outprocess at the end. That way they still got a years use out of you.

 

[Erich]

I'll just mention a couple of things since I am one of that era

the movie prodcuers past and present have no clue on what really happened in life-like circumstances in Nam.

the marines and the navy were quite close together as the marines did not have their own ground docs the navy supplied them, my eldest bro in law is proof of that and still kicks out shrap from his body daily in his bed due to a tripped bomb-mine his forward runner set off, lucky he is even alive.

service was generally adhered too by draftees as the guys were being detracked too soon and removed from the field and sent home of course we may or you may not know how many were deemed by themselves as awol. one of my cousins moved to Canada or close to during this time of strangeness.

1 year service is really dependent on which branch you served in

ok bad memories coming back..............good bye on this thread

 

[mikewint]

this is long, forgive me but this is my topic. i do vietnam presentations for schools and i hand this out as part of that presentation

Vietnam War Myths

The Press, various organizations and groups, and even history book have promulgated many myths about this war. The most common are:

1. The average age of an infantry trooper was 19 years
The average age was actually 22.8 YO and no enlisted man in Vietnam was less than 20 YO. The average trooper was 26 YO

2. Combat fighting in Vietnam was less than that experience by WWII troops stationed in the South Pacific.
Infantry troops in the South Pacific averaged 40 days of combat during the four years of fighting. In Vietnam helicopter mobility put troops in combat 240 days per year.
1 out of 10 became casualty
58,169 were KIA
304,000 were wounded out of the 2.59 million who served.
75,000 veterans were severely disabled. 300% higher than WWII
MEDEVAC helicopters flew 500,000 missions, airlifting 900,000 wounded
(about ½ Americans), average time from being wounded to
hospitalization was less than 1 hour. Less than 1% of those who
survived the first 24 hours died from their wounds


3. The majority of Vietnam Veterans were drafted
2/3 of all troops in Vietnam had volunteered
During WWII 2/3 of all troops had been drafted.

4. Blacks were used as "Cannon Fodder" by the government resulting in high casualty rate for black troops.
86% of all KIA were White. 12% of KIA were Black, which is equal to their percentage in the U.S. population as a whole at the time and slightly lower than their percentage in the army.

5. Because of college student deferrals the war was fought by the poor and uneducated.
The highest KIA rate was among pilots and Infantry officers, positions filled by the more educated who tended to come from the more well to do parts of the country.

6. America lost the Vietnam War.
American military forces never lost any major battle including the
famous "Tet-Offensive" in 1968. Tet was a major defeat for both the
VC and NVA. NO territory was gained and NVA/VC lost 32,204 KIA
and 5,803 captured. US losses were 1,015 KIA and ARVN losses were
2,819. The VC/NVA had counted on a "People's Uprising" to carry
them to victory. It never occurred. The ONLY US property attacked
was the embassy in Saigon. The 15-man sapper team killed 4 Army
MPs and 1 Marine guard. They never entered the chancery building
and all 15 were dead within 6 hours. The SVN police who were
supposed to guard the embassy fled at the first sound of gunfire. With
the exception of Hue the NVA/VC were forced to retreat within 24
hours of the initial attack. After Tet the VC ceased to be a fighting
force. The NVA main battalions had been deliberately held in
reserve. The southern VC had been sent out to be slaughtered so the
North would have full control and political power. As for the civilians
"liberated" by the NVA/VC over 9,000 were murdered. In Hue over
2.800 burial sites were uncovered containing the mutilated bodies of
every doctor, teacher, and political leader the NVA could locate.
After Tet, American forces faced regular NVA fully trained and
equipped with the latest Russian and Chinese hardware.

American Media
The Vietnam War was lost in the American media.
A.
In 1968 Eddie Adams an AP photographer took
this photo of General Nguyen Ngoc Luan head
of Saigon's Security Forces executing a VC
prisoner. This photo won a Pulitzer Prize in 1969
and was widely portrayed as evidence of
Saigon's corruption, inhumanity, and injustice
which had caused the Viet Cong to rebel and begin their civil war.
That the prisoner was the head of a terrorist squad, that he had just been captured in the home of one of Nguyen's top officers. That he and 5 others had just killed and tortured the officer, his mother and father, his wife and their 4 children was never mentioned in any American report. Adams protests, even to his dying day, that this act was "wholly justified given the nature of the crime and guerilla nature of the War." were never given any press coverage.

B. On 8 June 72, AP photographer Nick Ùt (a
Vietnamese national) covering an ARVN
attack on the village of Trang Bang, which had
been captured and occupied two days earlier
by NVA forces took this photo of 9 YO Kim Phuc
running naked from the village where a VNAF
Vietnamese pilot had dropped napalm.
Media in the U.S. widely claimed this to be a U.S. atrocity, Evidence of the brutal way the US military conducted the War.
While U.S. forces had supplied the napalm NO Americans were
involved in any capacity whatsoever. U.S. forces had NO authority over any ARVN command.

C. During WWII the American media operated under strict wartime secrecy laws. The Media were expressly forbidden to show the bodies of dead soldiers. Try to find ANY history book, newsreel footage, or newspaper photo that shows a dead American GI. Try to find any photos of a soldier who had lost both legs to a German mine. Find any Photos of the thousands of Marines dying to capture islands no one could even find on a map? Islands we gave back after the war.

D. Imagine Walter Cronkite reporting on the "Battle of the Bulge" (Hitler's last ditch attempt to stop the allied forces in Europe): "despite Allied efforts, the enemy still has the means to mount a major offensive, and therefore the war in Europe is unwinable." Sound stupid? Yet Walter felt free to say this about Tet. Big-time reporters like Morley Safer, Charles Kuralt, etc. rarely left the comforts of Saigon.

7. Draft Dodgers protested against the war
They protested because they did not want to be inducted into the
military. When the draft ended in 1972 anti-war protests almost
ceased entirely. The so-called Peace movement never actually
called for peace only an end to American involvement. When the
NVA slaughtered thousands of peasants, when Pol Pot went on a
killing spree, when North Vietnam invaded Cambodia, when the
Soviets invaded Afghanistan, they made no protest.


8. Drug use in Vietnam was rampant
When drug use occurred it was confined to personnel stationed at
base camps or other secure installations. In the field it no longer was
a "victimless crime" it endangered lives. Anyone stupid enough to
use drugs in the field was either beaten senseless or became KIA
either through hostile fire or tragically, by friendly fire.

9. Fraggings were common in Vietnam
During the 10 plus years of American involvement the total cases
came to 230. Or less than your chances of becoming a homicide
victim in Berkeley California. From about 1970 – 1972 every soldier
was keenly aware the U.S. troops were being pulled out of Vietnam.
Draftees often had been involved in the anti-war movement and
were inclined to question military authority. Judges during the period
often gave convicted criminals the choice of Army or Jail. A good
number of the intentional homicides committed during this period
were by these sociopaths.

10. Prisoners were thrown from helicopters
In many of these stories one VC is tossed out to make the others
"talk". VERY few Americans spoke Vietnamese. It is a Very difficult
language to speak because the meaning of a word changes with its
tonal inflection. It is very difficult to ask even a very straight forward
question. I personally know of one fanatical NVA captive that fell to
his death. We had captured him in Cambodia and had to be
extracted by "strings". The VC was tied and blindfolded. He was
worth a week in Bangkok to the man that captured him so we sat him
in his captors lap and were lifted off. Once in the air the VC began
kicking, fighting, and biting until both were swinging like a pendulum.
The VC finally broke the ties and pushed himself free of his captor.

11. American Atrocities were widespread.
During the entire war there were TWO cases of War Crimes by military
personnel. March 1968 My Lai by the 1st platoon of Charlie company,
Lt Calley and February 1970 16 women and children by 5 Marines
Bravo company at Son Thang. Both case resulted in court martial
and all were found guilty. After 3 years, Calley was pardoned by
Nixon.
Meanwhile the press never mentioned any of the widespread civilian
murders committed by the VC/NVA. During Tet alone the VC/NVA
murdered over 5,000 civilians, in Hue alone over 3,000 were tortured
and murdered. Civilian USAID workers, missionaries and any other
westerners were captured starved, tortured, and murdered with never
a press comment.

 

[mikewint]

12. Body counts were falsified
Early in the war ARVN units in order to appear more effective in
fighting the VC/NVA and thus qualify for more US aid routinely inflated
or just plain faked their body counts. Reporters in Saigon ASSUMED US
forces would do the same.
Personally I never even heard the term "Body Count" until I returned
to the States. In Vietnam and the army in general they were "enemy
casualty reports". These counts had to be verified by battalion or
brigade officers.
The NVA/VC also took great pains to remove their dead from the
battlefield to hide their true losses.
In 1995 the North Vietnamese declared in an official press release that
their losses were 1.1 MILLION. The US had estimated 750,000 KIA

13. The Communists still hold POWs
The present count is 1170 military MIA and 108 civilians unaccounted
for as of 2008. Of the 1170 military there are 324 cases where the
individuals involved were seen in captivity by air/ground troops,
reported by returned POWs as in captivity, or aircraft found intact
with no crew.
While it is possible that the NVA may have held some of these in
captivity after the 1973 Paris Peace Accords in the event that the US
violated the terms of the Treaty (the US did not, the North Vietnamese
did) they would have been of no value (to the NVA) after 1975. In
fact just the opposite.
My own experience with these, to quote Jane Fonda: "Heroic
freedom fighters", is that they either gratuitously tortured and then
murdered POWs soon after capture or killed them by forced marches
without food, water, or medical attention into camps located in Laos,
Cambodia, or North Vietnam.
Having experienced the triple canopy jungles of SE Asia I know just
how wild and trackless the area is. I can easily see MIAs who avoided
capture dieing of exposure or starvation.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

When I was in the Army, and AF most of the tours were 13 months, not 1 year. Just a small detail, but that extra 30 days seen like a lot when you were there.
I think they might have thought it tool 2-3 weeks to process in , get a little area retraining, get acclimitised, and get to your unit. Then one week to outprocess at the end. That way they still got a years use out of you.

Still the same today. When I went into Iraq, it was 12 months boots on the ground. 1 month before in Kuwait getting the aircraft ready to cross the border and 1 month afterwords putting them back on the boat.

 

[ToughOmbre]

Good post mikewint !

Because of the media, among other things, many Americans are not aware of the facts that you present.

What make my blood boil the most is when people say "we lost the Viet Nam War" !

TO

 

[The Basket]

Got a few questions if you dont mind guys...

1...what was the punishment for refusing the draft?

2...were guys who avoided the draft either by going to Canada or prosecuted after they returned? Is thier still warrants now still active for arrest?

3......could you avoid service on religous grounds?

4....what was the minimum term in the USAF or Navy as the time? Could one avoid the draft by going into another branch of service? Did you have a choice of trade?

 

[tyrodtom]

1. I don't know.

2. They were granted amnesty .

3. yes you could, it worked for some, not so well for others. Sometimes it depended on you local draft board. You could also join the service as a conscientious objector, they would assign you non-combatant duties. My own oldest brother was a CO during the Korean war, he volunteered to be a medic, but the war ended before he got to Korea. One of the men in my basic training platoon was a CO, the drill sargents went out of their way to make things as hard as possible for him. CO status in the military was not a easy way to go.

4. The USAF was a 4 year enlistment, so was the Navy, I think. You could enlist after you received your draft notice, even in the Army, which had a 3 year minimum enlistment. You had a choice of trades, and could even be garanteed entrance in a school if you took test before enlistment, and your scores met their requirments. If you were drafted, you had no choice, you went where they wanted you, that would usually be a job that Uncle Sam didn't have to spend a lot of money training you to do, infantry, cook,supply clerk,etc.

 

[mikewint]

1. refusing the draft without reason would generally result in a federal prison term though such terms and their lengths were up to the judge. some like Muhammad Ali were refused deferment on religious grounds but fought it in court and won. others like David (Joan Baez husband) received 5 year sentences.

 

[mikewint]

eagle, in vietnam a single tour was 13mo and 15days. as you observed they wanted 12mo LPCs on the ground. i made 10mo and 12days on my first tour before being wounded. i was treated in vietnam then airlifted to Japan for more extensive care. the doc in japan being really nice stabilized and decided to send me home. that ended my tour just shy of 12mo. since i had not completed the "full" i was rotated back when i was declared "fit for duty" my MOS being in very high demand by that time

 

[RabidAlien]

I think the "minimum tour" is pretty common in all branches. Speaking from experience, the minimum "sea tour" in the Navy is 4 years. Most schools last up to 6 months, so guys get away with 3.5 years of sea-duty. For Nukes, the schools were 1 year (for Machinist Mates), 1.5 years (for Electricians Mates...all 18 months of which royally sucked), and 2 years for Electronics Technicians. So, to make things "fair", minimum enlistment periods for Nukes were 6 years. MM's got shafted with 5 years of sea duty. Somehow I lucked out and drew three decommissioning subs, so instead of 4.5 years of sea duty, I ended up with about 3.5 sea, 1 year drydock, 1.5 schooling. As was said before, the military wants to get their money's worth, so they have minimum "boot-on-ground" time (or whatever the respective branch calls it). They generally add that to training and schooling time.