Raptor vs Eurofighter

[Matt308]

The F-22 is the worlds ONLY 5th generation fighter. The capabilities of this machine have not even begun to be tapped. In fact, its inherent capabilities are so vast, that it is requiring new and novel approaches to training. The F-22 is truly changing the current air superiority doctrine.

 

[T4.H]

I dont see how a Raptor will be less effective as a fighter than the Typhoon because the Raptor has thrust vectoring which will help make it more maneuverable. Correct me if I am wrong but the Typhoon does not have thrust vectoring nor does it have stealth. F-22 is a tad bit above the Typhoon.

No time to go into the net and to write...

OK, second Question: ...does it have stealth.

No and yes. It has some stealth features. The radar signature has just a quarter of the size of a Panavia Tornado. They changed the air entrance, the air to air rockets are partly hided in the body and some parts are paintet with a anti radar colour.

First question: ...but the Typhoon does not have thrust vectoring...
Yes it doesn't have. The third charge perhaps will have it.
Does Thyphoon need this system?
No!
Why not?
It has canard wings. Together with the flaps of the main wing, you can fly the Typhoon like it would have a thrust vectoring system!
The F22 was constructed to be a fighter with stealth features.
The Typhoon was constructed to be the best dogfighter of the world.
Perhaps in 20 years you can construct a fighter with stealth features which is as good as a fighter without it. But not now.
And don't forget, a typhoon you can pull up with 9 g at supersonic speed.
You are a pilot, I think, you can try it onces with a F22.
I think, you understand, what I mean with onces (in your live)!


Both are realy good fighters.
The F22 has the stealth feature. The Typhoon has the better electronic systems (speach stearing of systems, newer computer systems (less work for the pilot to shoot down an aircraft) etc.), ECM systems, infrared systems to recognize a F22 (50km range), better in dogfights etc...
The F22 is just too expensive to buy it in high numbers. Against which opponent you expect to fight in the next years?
Syria? Iran? Pakistan? North Korea?
These opponents just didn't have any aircraft to win a battle against a F22 or a Typhoon. These aircrafts are superior to there opponents. It just makes no difference.
A Typhoon is perhaps 3 to 6 times cheaper than a F22.
You will never have enough F22 you will need!

I know, that the russians have realy good infrared systems. (well known found on the Mig29). And of course they have the better ejection seats . Nowadays you have to avoid the use any radar systems, passiv systems will rule the air (and also the sea). Who wants to fly as a "lighthouse" through the air? I'm not sure that the F22 will have a better (or much better) shot down ratio against a Su35 than a Typhoon.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The F22 has the stealth feature. The Typhoon has the better electronic systems

Prove it!

These aircrafts are superior to there opponents. It just makes no difference.
A Typhoon is perhaps 3 to 6 times cheaper than a F22.
You will never have enough F22 you will need!

Not when one could take on and defeat 5 or 6 opponents at once. And once again you forget about the F-35 which might be just as capable as the F-22 - i suggest you do some more homework on this matter....

 

[Glider]

I would suggest that the main problem with the F22 is that its a victim of its own success and of course, its cost.

The few countries that can afford it (Saudi a good example) would never be allowed to buy it, the most likely country to need it, Israel, cannot be trusted with it (look at what happened to the Lavi).
Everyone else will look at the price tag, look at the threat, work out that there are alternatives, Typhoon/Rafael etc, that can deal with the threat at a much cheaper cost and go for the cheaper option.

The USA probably have enough to meet their needs but almost no one else will be able/allowed to buy it.

Good news for those employed in the Typhoon programme, bad news for those on the F22 production line, as once the US orders are fulfilled the game could be over. It would be a brave person who would bet that a new Goverment wouldn't cut the number of F22's on order and replace than with cheaper F35's, making the situation worse.

 

[Glider]

I forgot to add that FJ ad the others are correct, the F22 is way ahead of the opposition, even the Typhoon the key being STEALTH.

It wouldn't matter if the F22 had the performance of a dog, it you cannot see it, you cannot kill it and it can kill you.
The point is clear.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I would suggest that the main problem with the F22 is that its a victim of its own success and of course, its cost.

The few countries that can afford it (Saudi a good example) would never be allowed to buy it, the most likely country to need it, Israel, cannot be trusted with it (look at what happened to the Lavi).
Everyone else will look at the price tag, look at the threat, work out that there are alternatives, Typhoon/Rafael etc, that can deal with the threat at a much cheaper cost and go for the cheaper option.

The USA probably have enough to meet their needs but almost no one else will be able/allowed to buy it.

Good news for those employed in the Typhoon programme, bad news for those on the F22 production line, as once the US orders are fulfilled the game could be over. It would be a brave person who would bet that a new Goverment wouldn't cut the number of F22's on order and replace than with cheaper F35's, making the situation worse.

Glider you've hit the nail right on the head. Lockheed it doing a balancing act right now with both programs. There were a lot of mistakes made on the F-22 development and those mistakes were learned during the X-35 and that's why it ran away from its competition. Pump one program up and you're dooming the other.

 

[T4.H]

Prove it!

Not when one could take on and defeat 5 or 6 opponents at once. And once again you forget about the F-35 which might be just as capable as the F-22 - i suggest you do some more homework on this matter....

We are talking about the F22 and the Typhoon...
Not about the rest of your airforce.
You will have 178 F22...
The much smaler Airforce of Germany will have 180 Typhoon (or so).
Great Britain 232...etc.

Do you realy think, the Typhoon couldn't take on and defeat 5 or 6 opponents at once? Both aircrafts are so much better than all possible opponents...Perhaps in 30 years there will be a difference.
In war...100 have to stay at home (training, refit etc.) or somewhere else in the world...so you have perhaps 80 which you can use...
How many will be over the enemy coutryside at the same time...
10? 8? or perhaps 6? How much of the enemy country they can cover? Do they fly alone or in groups? (I would say in groups). The rest have to be repaired, to be reloded to be refilled etc. Or the pilots are waiting for there next job. And this of course only if you can start from airfields next to the enemy country.
And never forget...
Less or more, you can (or will) use the F22 only as a fighter. What you will do with this one if you have defeated all opponents?
(and again...) The Typhoon you will use as a fighter-bomber.
And before I forgot...

For me, it would be nice to have the F22. But noone needs this fighter anymore.
I would pefer to have a higher number of F35 instead (or a higher number of Typhoon).

 

[FLYBOYJ]

We are talking about the F22 and the Typhoon...
Not about the rest of your airforce.

Yes I realize that...

You will have 178 F22...
The much smaler Airforce of Germany will have 180 Typhoon (or so).
Great Britain 232...etc.

and again you're forgetting about the F-35.

Do you realy think, the Typhoon couldn't take on and defeat 5 or 6 opponents at once?

Not 5 of 6 F-22s

Both aircrafts are so much better than all possible opponents...Perhaps in 30 years there will be a difference.
In war...100 have to stay at home (training, refit etc.) or somewhere else in the world...so you have perhaps 80 which you can use...
How many will be over the enemy coutryside at the same time...
10? 8? or perhaps 6?

In future war that's all that may be needed.

How much of the enemy country they can cover? Do they fly alone or in groups? (I would say in groups).

As far as supporting tankers can support...

The rest have to be repaired, to be reloded to be refilled etc. Or the pilots are waiting for there next job. And this of course only if you can start from airfields next to the enemy country.
And never forget...
Less or more, you can (or will) use the F22 only as a fighter. What you will do with this one if you have defeated all opponents?
(and again...) The Typhoon you will use as a fighter-bomber.
And before I forgot...

The F-22 has a fighter bomber capability being offered...

" For its air-to-ground role, the F-22 can internally carry two 1,000 pound-class Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), two AIM-120C, and two AIM-9 missiles"

F-22 Raptor - Military Aircraft

For me, it would be nice to have the F22. But noone needs this fighter.
I would pefer to have a higher number of F35 instead (or a higher number of Typhoon).

Now there I agree....

 

[T4.H]

I forgot to add that FJ ad the others are correct, the F22 is way ahead of the opposition, even the Typhoon the key being STEALTH.

It wouldn't matter if the F22 had the performance of a dog, it you cannot see it, you cannot kill it and it can kill you.
The point is clear.

This would be right if...

the Typhoon and the Su35 wouldn't be constructed to shoot down especially Fighters with stealth features...(infrared systems...).
Why do you think, they have somethink like this on board.

And the F35 is a nice aircraft (OK, the german airforce will never buy it, only one engine, not after the F104).
And it would be a much more nice aircraft, if any modern radar system in the world would still work on the X-band...
but they didn't.

I have to leave now.
Perhaps I will have time again to write next weekend.
I fear not.

Mfg
The Fourth Horseman

p.s.:

" For its air-to-ground role, the F-22 can internally carry two 1,000 pound-class Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM), two AIM-120C, and two AIM-9 missiles"

Nice, so it can make two big holes in one attack...
Question:
Would it be enough to fight against the irak army with there thousands of tanks in the second gulf war?
(and again the first one was the Iran Irak gulf war...)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

T4.H I think you are underestimating the F-22 and its capabilities.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Nice, so it can make two big holes in one attack...

And sometimes that's all thats needed - BTW the F-117 carried the same load

Question:
Would it be enough to fight against the irak army with there thousands of tanks in the second gulf war?
(and again the first one was the Iran Irak gulf war...)

No - there were plenty of tanks and helicopters to take care of that and they did!!!!

But those two bombs was all that was needed to completely destroy the Iraqi military headquarters and those would been the type of targets the F-22 would take out if used in an air-to-ground role. leave the tanks to the F-35 and Apache. The Abrams' could have whats left over...

 

[T4.H]

T4.H I think you are underestimating the F-22 and its capabilities.

I don't think so. But perhaps you are right.
But perhaps you overestimate the F22.

I think F22 against the Typhoon has a ratio of "only" 1 to 1.2 or 1.3...
Do you ever expect they will ever fight against each other?
And I think both aircrafts will shoot down any possible opponent at less or more the same ratio (nowadays).
Perhaps the Typhoon would be a little bit better.

And now I realy have to leave.

Mfg

The Fourth of The Four

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I don't think so. But perhaps you are right.
But perhaps you overestimate the F22.

I think F22 against the Typhoon has a ratio of "only" 1 to 1.2 or 1.3...
Do you ever expect they will ever fight against each other?
And I think both aircrafts will shoot down any possible opponent at less or more the same ratio (nowadays).
Perhaps the Typhoon would be a little bit better.

And now I realy have to leave.

Mfg

The Fourth of The Four

No I am not. I think the Typhoon is an excellent aircraft but the Raptor is a step above.

I honestly dont think the Typhoon is more maneuverable. The F-22 can litterally turn on a dime.

You say the Typhoon has better avionics and electical package. I dont think you can say that when you dont know the full extent of the F-22 package. None of us do. So much of the F-22 is still classified.

 

[plan_D]

Until 2010 when the Typhoon receives AESA; the avionic systems are not comparable - the F-22 is a mile step ahead.

 

[mkloby]

Seems like someone just as an issue of pride clouding his judgement. Notice Mr T4 has presented absolutely zero evidence to back up any of his claims of the Typhoon's superiority over the 22.

 

[T4.H]

Seems like someone just as an issue of pride clouding his judgement. Notice Mr T4 has presented absolutely zero evidence to back up any of his claims of the Typhoon's superiority over the 22.

I have no time to confirm any data. Next time (perhaps) to confirm will be next weekend. But I fear not. Just no time...not enough time...

You have to confirm it by yourself.
Most of the data you can find in...

Eurofighter EF 2000 - Wikipedia

By bad luck in german.

I found out that the English wikipedia-version is different to the German version.

I wish you a nice week.

T4.H

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Here....

Eurofighter Typhoon - Demon or Lemon?

APA Analysis - F-22A Raptor

"The probability of a successful engagement can be translated into the more commonly used metric of a kill ratio by making some reasonable statistical assumptions, and doing this yields about 10.0:1 for the F-22A, 4.6:1 for the Typhoon, 1.5:1 for the single seat F-15E, 1:1 for the Rafale and 0.75:1 for the F-15C. So in the most common terms used, the Typhoon is by the DERA simulation about half as combat effective as the F-22A, about three times as combat effective as the F-15F, about five times as effective as the Rafale and 6 times as effective as the F-15C. If we compare this with cited USAF claims rating the F-22A as 10-15 times as combat effective as the F-15C in BVR engagements, this means that the DERA study roughly agrees with USAF assessments of F-22A vs F-15C combat effectiveness. The detailed assumptions applied to this study have not been disclosed."

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have no time to confirm any data. Next time (perhaps) to confirm will be next weekend. But I fear not. Just no time...not enough time...

You have to confirm it by yourself.
Most of the data you can find in...

Eurofighter EF 2000 - Wikipedia

By bad luck in german.

I found out that the English wikipedia-version is different to the German version.

I wish you a nice week.

T4.H

And you can not use Wikipedia to confirm anything. It is one of the most unreliable sources.

In order for you to prove anything you need to find out the turn and roll radius of both aircraft. I dont think you can do that.

In order to prove that the Typhoon has a better avionics package you need to know what all is in the F-22. I know you can not do that.

 

[Glider]

Here....

Eurofighter Typhoon - Demon or Lemon?

APA Analysis - F-22A Raptor

"The probability of a successful engagement can be translated into the more commonly used metric of a kill ratio by making some reasonable statistical assumptions, and doing this yields about 10.0:1 for the F-22A, 4.6:1 for the Typhoon, 1.5:1 for the single seat F-15E, 1:1 for the Rafale and 0.75:1 for the F-15C. So in the most common terms used, the Typhoon is by the DERA simulation about half as combat effective as the F-22A, about three times as combat effective as the F-15F, about five times as effective as the Rafale and 6 times as effective as the F-15C. If we compare this with cited USAF claims rating the F-22A as 10-15 times as combat effective as the F-15C in BVR engagements, this means that the DERA study roughly agrees with USAF assessments of F-22A vs F-15C combat effectiveness. The detailed assumptions applied to this study have not been disclosed."

Good article although the author seems to have a thing about Australia. The above doesn't look good for the Rafale, maybe thas why no one has bought it.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

He's from Australia so it had the slant....