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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
It should have been just that, a remembrance of the huge sacrifices by all people, military and civilian alike regardless of what nation they were from.
But Putin turned it into a Октя́брьская револю́ция parade instead of a solemn occasion. He only allowed one WWII veteran from each district as guests during the review instead having them all present.
The rememberences in other countries were all about the occasion, included all WWII veterans as participants and had an air of respect.
Why? What has the actions of the United States got to do with Russia feeling insecure? I thought Russia and America and the West for that matter were Allies. Aren't allies supposed to look after each other's interests in times of hardship? Surely if Putin feels insecure, he can arrange some kind of treaty with his allies in the name of peace and continuing good relations, not denounce their intentions (however questionable), then invade a neighbouring country. And what has invading the Ukraine got to do with the United States? Granted, the US's actions in the past decade have been seriously questionable under Bush, but surely emulating the actions of the nation you are accusing of being a threat is not going to solve anything.
You are right Igor, we can gain no ground and must agree to disagree on this. Sadly, the biggest losers in all this are the victims of Putin's questionable foreign policy - ordinary people just trying to make a living while their masters play God.
No, Putin might not have invented the parade, but surely reinvigorating it does nothing but intimidate neighbouring nations. It's a bit like building a nuclear missile and defending it by stating that I wasn't the first, and I'm only doing it to defend my borders...
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imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
Didn't say that, but I guess if we had let ourselves get invaded without opposition, things might have gone better back then...
However, here's one example of Slavic solidarity. Here in Belgrade, a Victory Day was commemorated by several manifestations and, among others, one was organized at the Cemetery of Liberators of Belgrade. Wreaths and flowers were placed at the monument to Soviet soldiers. One wreath was placed together by the Military attaches of Russian and Ukrainian embassy.
My friend, I'm afraid you are mistaken. Granted that Victory Parades in Russia are more then just commemorative events and always bear a political message. This dates back to the Soviet times. However, I doubt that any other country respect it's WW2 veterans more then Russia. Surely there are limitations in number of people that can occupy the stages overlooking the parade? There were also other commemorative manifestations on that day in Moscow and other cities. Have you seen the reports about "Immortal regiment" rally? People got to the streets in their thousands carrying pictures of their relatives and ancestors who died or were wounded in WW2. Very impressive sight. Putin was at the head of the column in Moscow carrying picture of his father who was wounded during the siege of Leningrad. As said before, there were commemorative manifestations held in other cities. The one held at Volgograd (former Stalingrad) was attended by German Minister of Foreign Affairs.
I don't want to get into an argument about current international relations, as we already agreed to disagree about this, but let me try to elaborate. Since the end of the cold war as Russia struggled to get back on her feet, we witnessed U.S. led military interventions all around the world - from former Yugoslavia to the Middle East. The First Gulf War was authorized by UN Security Council. For many other actions no one bothered with such details. Whatever the intentions, I don't see that things in the Middle East got better because of that. Meanwhile, in Europe we have NATO incorporating new member states and expanding ever closer to the Russian borders. You don't honestly believe that missile shield planned to be placed in eastern European countries is directed against Iran? How can Russia feel secure if deprived of ability to retaliate against potential nuclear attack? Then we have Ukrainian crisis, which started when legally elected president was violently overthrown with possible involvement of foreign intelligence agencies. This started the spiral of violence in that country which we still don't know where it will lead. The annexation of Crimea was a move which Putin was forced to do if to protect Russia strategic interests. Some veil of democracy was kept though. People of the Crimea (in majority ethnic Russians) voted for it on the referendum. There was no violence. (This was not the case in Kosovo for example, which was forcibly taken from Serbia in 1999 by the means of Albanian terrorists armed insurrection and NATO military intervention.)
I remember reading somewhere Putin's statement about Crimea; "We will always welcome NATO troops as our guests in Sevastopol, but we can never allow for us to be their guests over there." And this would have happened sooner or later I believe, if no action had been taken. (Can you imagine some other foreign power ever taking over Perl Harbor from the Americans?) He also allegedly said that Russia offers her hand for cooperation on equal terms, however, "apparently Americans are not looking for Allies but vassals." Looking at international relations this just might be true. We live in a world where sole superpower respect no one interests but her own. I might be mistaken, but perhaps a multipolar world would be a better place...
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- Thread starter
- #45
I am full of admiration for all ordinary Allied soldiers and sailors.Unwittingly they gave their lives for Stalin's totalitarian system.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"...Don't think that Putin is such a baddie as presented in some media. .."
So the population of the Baltic Republics are simply paranoid ..... while Russia is just doing what it has always done, naturally.
Baltic military chiefs to call for permanent NATO presence | Reuters
So the population of the Baltic Republics are simply paranoid ..... while Russia is just doing what it has always done, naturally.
Baltic military chiefs to call for permanent NATO presence | Reuters
imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
Instead of creating artificial tensions and provoking Russia, the governments of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania would be better of dealing with disturbing Neo-Nazi tendencies in their countries. Did you know that parades in honor of Waffen SS veterans, involving veterans from the Latvian Legion and the 20th Estonian SS Division and their supporters, are held annually in the Baltic states? And this is going on for years.
Calls to ban Baltic neo-Nazi marches | The Jewish Chronicle
Calls to ban Baltic neo-Nazi marches | The Jewish Chronicle
An unelected nobody called Romano Prodi who was as far as I know never elected to the post but was appointed as President of the EU commission declared today that EU must merge its armed forces and have a single army and airforce. The prospect of that bunch of swivel eyed lunatics being in charge of Europes hardware is scary, from my experience with Blair and Cameron in UK when they have a toy they want to play with it regardless of the consequences and the EU commission is even worse. There would certainly be a conflict with Russia within a few years.
My father was in the RN the men on the merchant ships were civilians, not volunteers in the same sense because it was their job. My father was under no illusions what was going on he spent the winter in a soviet prison, the Russians found it easier to lock all sailors and seamen up rather than provide proper accommodation and keep some order.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"....disturbing Neo-Nazi tendencies in their countries. Did you know that parades in honor of Waffen SS veterans, involving veterans from the ...."
An internal matter .... hardly the same as declaring cyber war on country's IT networks as the Russians did to Estonia in revenge for moving a Soviet "Liberation" statue to a war cemetery from a public square. You don't "Liberate" a country that doesn't want you and that you illegally occupied in the first place.
Estonia isn't fascist any more than Sweden or Finland, Igor ... and Russia is playing a very dangerous game considering how bloody their hands are. The EU isn't a fascist alliance either Igor ... but Ukrainians who desire to attach to a democratic , economic zone are fascist .... hardly. Fear mongering ... stirring old boils ... is Putin's game. Germany embedded the Nazis because they failed to accept the reality of their history ... they stepped backwards into German mythology and cultism ... Russia is walking backwards.
An internal matter .... hardly the same as declaring cyber war on country's IT networks as the Russians did to Estonia in revenge for moving a Soviet "Liberation" statue to a war cemetery from a public square. You don't "Liberate" a country that doesn't want you and that you illegally occupied in the first place.
Estonia isn't fascist any more than Sweden or Finland, Igor ... and Russia is playing a very dangerous game considering how bloody their hands are. The EU isn't a fascist alliance either Igor ... but Ukrainians who desire to attach to a democratic , economic zone are fascist .... hardly. Fear mongering ... stirring old boils ... is Putin's game. Germany embedded the Nazis because they failed to accept the reality of their history ... they stepped backwards into German mythology and cultism ... Russia is walking backwards.
imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
Things are not that simple and one sided as you're trying to portray. Neo-Nazi movements exist all over Europe, but they are little more then marginal occurrence. That doesn't make EU a "fascist alliance" (your words, not mine). However, when such a movement and ideology is supported by political structures or even a state government, that's dangerous and hardly an "internal" matter. I'm sorry you don't see that.
No one questions the legitimate desire of Ukrainian people for a better life, but I'm afraid that NATO and EU couldn't care less about their desires. Don't think that last year's Maidan revolt which started it all was spontaneous. It was instigated. It's all a part of larger geopolitical struggle in which one side is trying to keep it's dominant position while other tries to gain a better position herself. The government in Kiev with extreme nationalistic elements, which have blood of their countrymen on their hands, is just a tool in that struggle. It will be left down the drain if the powers that be decide so. And the people? Unfortunately, the ordinary people, regardless of nationality, will suffer either way.
No one questions the legitimate desire of Ukrainian people for a better life, but I'm afraid that NATO and EU couldn't care less about their desires. Don't think that last year's Maidan revolt which started it all was spontaneous. It was instigated. It's all a part of larger geopolitical struggle in which one side is trying to keep it's dominant position while other tries to gain a better position herself. The government in Kiev with extreme nationalistic elements, which have blood of their countrymen on their hands, is just a tool in that struggle. It will be left down the drain if the powers that be decide so. And the people? Unfortunately, the ordinary people, regardless of nationality, will suffer either way.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Estonian war veterans marching to commemorate their military service are not Neo Nazis, Igor. 1,000's of Estos, Balts, Belgians, Spaniards, Frenchmen, Danes, and Finns - including Jewish Finns served with distinction on the eastern Front - Waffen SS or no Waffen SS - they served because they saw that Communism was the scourge of Christian Western values which it was and which it is. Italians, Hungarians and Romanians fought, died and were enslaved for losing to the Soviets ... these men were also Neo Nazis, Igor.
As for Ukrainians ... I am surprised you even question their desire to be closer to the west after their treatment at the hands of Stalin and his thugs.
If Europe is experiencing a neo-Nazis rebirth, Igor, I put it to you that the cause of that unrest is the creeping socialism politically correct dogma that has swept Europe, the British Isles, and alas, Canada and the USA.
Communism is blind DOGMA ... that ignores the truth ... at the peril of those who are subjugated to it, and it has failed everywhere it has been installed. No one wants a Communist government except party apparatchiks.
As for Ukrainians ... I am surprised you even question their desire to be closer to the west after their treatment at the hands of Stalin and his thugs.
If Europe is experiencing a neo-Nazis rebirth, Igor, I put it to you that the cause of that unrest is the creeping socialism politically correct dogma that has swept Europe, the British Isles, and alas, Canada and the USA.
Communism is blind DOGMA ... that ignores the truth ... at the peril of those who are subjugated to it, and it has failed everywhere it has been installed. No one wants a Communist government except party apparatchiks.
imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
Read again what I wrote Michael. I'm not doing that.
There's a difference between commemorating ones honorable military service and glorifying criminal Nazi ideology and the crimes committed in the name of that ideology. Once again you simplify things Michael.
One more thing Michael. Communism was never installed the way it was envisioned by Marks. Anywhere.
That is because Marx ideas were an idealistic vision, but not a practical option. I think the closest you can get to his vision is being social democratic, a less radical, but much more practical view. Any further and you get the stuff the soviets came up with.
But guys, I think we should be careful here, there is a reason why politics are not allowed on this forum
But guys, I think we should be careful here, there is a reason why politics are not allowed on this forum
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... Once again you simplify things Michael."
Simple-minded, you're saying. Igor.
Simple-minded, you're saying. Igor.
That is because Marx ideas were an idealistic vision, but not a practical option. I think the closest you can get to his vision is being social democratic, a less radical, but much more practical view. Any further and you get the stuff the soviets came up with.
But guys, I think we should be careful here, there is a reason why politics are not allowed on this forum
I remember having a long discussion about Marx in China. Much of communism was based on his writing about the condition of the working class in Manchester in 1844 when he was a young man, it wasnt published in English until 1891. In the 47 years that passed the condition of people in Manchester had changed completely due to increased wages improved housing sanitation transport etc. People moved to Manchester during the industrial revolution because life in the countryside was worse and life in the cities improved when people found out what caused cholera typhoid etc. No Marxist ever bothered to discover the facts because actually all they wanted was a revolution to put them in the place of the present rulers. The Chinese I worked with found it hard to understand why there was no communist revolution in England, they didnt want a revolution in China just more money a better house car and TV, like most in the world.
razor1uk
Staff Sergeant
I think there are too many differences between most of the so called 'West' Europeans (inc, Central, Norhtern, Southern Western) some parts of East Europe, depending upon ideological cultural histories, historical development of politcal religious connections through time, and the general levels of education vs. the varied levels cultural (../national racial) histories given/purported as fact.
Russia all the countries that think they are part of some 'Russian Empire' are all in reality very young vs. the others in Europe that they disagree with, that is not to say the cultures, motives, some parts of histories and the peoples themselves are just as young, they are not, they are as old as the rest of us, but that the stabiltiy, acceptability and acceptance of power, institutions and controlling forces are more immature, reactive, derogitory and likely to abuse power to keep and enforce it.
But with so many tribes, plagues, wars, migrations, religious exchanges and cleansings, what is left is a culture of distrust, feigned ignorance for self preservation and sucking up to the most powerful. Who could blame the generations of peoples invaded and counter invaded from tmes long before the Romans, Thracians/Dacians, Macadonians and earlier etc, let alone the Byzantines, Turks, Ottomans, or Apostical , Roman Chruch, the Greek and Russian Orthodoxies or the flavours of Islam Judaism, all the while trying to farm enough to eat for your family whithout being killed for wrong action or apparent mis-deed or some 'political' reason.
Some say simplify, others, those books gives the facts, the other, this and that are only correct. I think, all ar correct in some form, albeit some books picked facts are used to guide and persuade thoughts, and that is all without taking in to additional account, the languages influences upon their/its users - how the structure, sayings, mannerisms and the language jokes all help to shape, steer and co-erce thought, ideas mindsets within a cultural/national/racial moulding of peoples.
Russia all the countries that think they are part of some 'Russian Empire' are all in reality very young vs. the others in Europe that they disagree with, that is not to say the cultures, motives, some parts of histories and the peoples themselves are just as young, they are not, they are as old as the rest of us, but that the stabiltiy, acceptability and acceptance of power, institutions and controlling forces are more immature, reactive, derogitory and likely to abuse power to keep and enforce it.
But with so many tribes, plagues, wars, migrations, religious exchanges and cleansings, what is left is a culture of distrust, feigned ignorance for self preservation and sucking up to the most powerful. Who could blame the generations of peoples invaded and counter invaded from tmes long before the Romans, Thracians/Dacians, Macadonians and earlier etc, let alone the Byzantines, Turks, Ottomans, or Apostical , Roman Chruch, the Greek and Russian Orthodoxies or the flavours of Islam Judaism, all the while trying to farm enough to eat for your family whithout being killed for wrong action or apparent mis-deed or some 'political' reason.
Some say simplify, others, those books gives the facts, the other, this and that are only correct. I think, all ar correct in some form, albeit some books picked facts are used to guide and persuade thoughts, and that is all without taking in to additional account, the languages influences upon their/its users - how the structure, sayings, mannerisms and the language jokes all help to shape, steer and co-erce thought, ideas mindsets within a cultural/national/racial moulding of peoples.
GregP
Major
We sat back and waited for the USSR to win, Parsifal?
Let's see ... the U.S.A. ramped up bombing tonnage every year and dropped more in 1944 on Germany than in all the rest of the war years all combined ... and we were sitting back and waiting for something? You might want to tell that to all the aircrew and ground troops who died in the west. I bet THEY didn't know it and that doesn't even mention naval war.
I'll have to disagree with you here, Parsifal. Not altogether a surprise and it's not an attempt to start an escalting discussion, either. Just a simple, "I don't think so," at least from a U.S. point of view.
The U.S.A is as far removed from the Soviet Front as is possible on a planet of this size ... half a planet away ... an entire ocean AND continent away on both sides, and we had supply lines reaching from the U.S.A. to Europe, the Pacific rim, China, Burma, India, Pacific Islands, Australia and even some to Africa, the North Sea and other points of interest, all simultaneously. Given this and the reality of the state of readiness we "enjoyed" in 1941, I'll have to say we gave it pretty good effort.
The Soviets did what they did and THEN word about it leaked out .. there was no "advance warning of intent to rape eastern Europe and the surrounding area." Yes, we were helping to support the USSR, but were definitely not welcome to fight alongside them on any battlefield, especially in their own territory or any adjacent.
All in all, I'm not too sure what the U.S.A. or the U.K. might have been expected to have done about it as far as prevention goes. We had yet to defeat the Nazis in the West, but were closing in when all this happened. Being accused of waiting is sort of like accidentally walking in on a robbery in progress and then being asked later why you weren't there sooner.
Like most people I decry what happened. But we (the U.S.A., U.K., Canada, and Australia) didn't particpate in the Soviet attrocities, didn't know about them in advance, and most certainly did not condone them. Many years of cold war should at least lend some credence to that assertion.
All that being said, I can certainly see why it might seem that way to the peoples to whom all this happened, who had little to no knowledge at the time of the situation the western Allies were facing. They were VERY occupied with what was happening to them at the time. It might seem as if we abandonded them but, in reality, we had little to no presence there to start with and little in the way of intelligence assets with which to gather information for the most part ... only some small intelligence that came from sympathetic resistance groups with access to radios that could be picked up by us or messages that could be smuggled out by people or public mail.
There were no satellites, no high-flying spy planes with long enough range to look, and little military reason to spy on erstwhile allies in the form of the Soviet Union while we were struggling to win ascendency in the west.
If I am not mistaken, the U.K., U.S.A., Canada, Australia, the Free French, Mexico, and other countries in South America and around the world were fighting on fronts where they could ... but there was never any thought of "invading" the Soviet Union to fight Germany from the north, south, east, and west simultaneously all by ourselves while warring with the Soviet Union at the same time over our "invasion" of their sovreign territory.
We expected the Russians to follow the rules of war as we understood them ... and they didn't. They apparently had limited or no experience with the western concept of "rules of war." I may be wrong, but I think at least the leaders still don't. I doubt we'd expect them to adhere in future conflicts, given their track record in WWII, the cold war, and now beyond the cold war. They might give lip-service to it in a declared war, but very probably not in some regional conflict or semi-local uprising.
Let's see ... the U.S.A. ramped up bombing tonnage every year and dropped more in 1944 on Germany than in all the rest of the war years all combined ... and we were sitting back and waiting for something? You might want to tell that to all the aircrew and ground troops who died in the west. I bet THEY didn't know it and that doesn't even mention naval war.
I'll have to disagree with you here, Parsifal. Not altogether a surprise and it's not an attempt to start an escalting discussion, either. Just a simple, "I don't think so," at least from a U.S. point of view.
The U.S.A is as far removed from the Soviet Front as is possible on a planet of this size ... half a planet away ... an entire ocean AND continent away on both sides, and we had supply lines reaching from the U.S.A. to Europe, the Pacific rim, China, Burma, India, Pacific Islands, Australia and even some to Africa, the North Sea and other points of interest, all simultaneously. Given this and the reality of the state of readiness we "enjoyed" in 1941, I'll have to say we gave it pretty good effort.
The Soviets did what they did and THEN word about it leaked out .. there was no "advance warning of intent to rape eastern Europe and the surrounding area." Yes, we were helping to support the USSR, but were definitely not welcome to fight alongside them on any battlefield, especially in their own territory or any adjacent.
All in all, I'm not too sure what the U.S.A. or the U.K. might have been expected to have done about it as far as prevention goes. We had yet to defeat the Nazis in the West, but were closing in when all this happened. Being accused of waiting is sort of like accidentally walking in on a robbery in progress and then being asked later why you weren't there sooner.
Like most people I decry what happened. But we (the U.S.A., U.K., Canada, and Australia) didn't particpate in the Soviet attrocities, didn't know about them in advance, and most certainly did not condone them. Many years of cold war should at least lend some credence to that assertion.
All that being said, I can certainly see why it might seem that way to the peoples to whom all this happened, who had little to no knowledge at the time of the situation the western Allies were facing. They were VERY occupied with what was happening to them at the time. It might seem as if we abandonded them but, in reality, we had little to no presence there to start with and little in the way of intelligence assets with which to gather information for the most part ... only some small intelligence that came from sympathetic resistance groups with access to radios that could be picked up by us or messages that could be smuggled out by people or public mail.
There were no satellites, no high-flying spy planes with long enough range to look, and little military reason to spy on erstwhile allies in the form of the Soviet Union while we were struggling to win ascendency in the west.
If I am not mistaken, the U.K., U.S.A., Canada, Australia, the Free French, Mexico, and other countries in South America and around the world were fighting on fronts where they could ... but there was never any thought of "invading" the Soviet Union to fight Germany from the north, south, east, and west simultaneously all by ourselves while warring with the Soviet Union at the same time over our "invasion" of their sovreign territory.
We expected the Russians to follow the rules of war as we understood them ... and they didn't. They apparently had limited or no experience with the western concept of "rules of war." I may be wrong, but I think at least the leaders still don't. I doubt we'd expect them to adhere in future conflicts, given their track record in WWII, the cold war, and now beyond the cold war. They might give lip-service to it in a declared war, but very probably not in some regional conflict or semi-local uprising.
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Greg, I don't believe the western powers didn't know about the soviets and their behaviour. I think they did know, Chuchill for sure. But I also believe they had no choice. Let us remember that they were fighting on many fronts, Pacific and Europe. You only have so much power left. At the time of the German surrender, they were still fighting the Japanese and there was no sign that that fight would be over soon. I can imagine that they were not willing to risk fighting the Red Army which was on full steam. They would have risked loosing the western countries in Europe as well. But that does not change that the Polish were abandoned, although not willingly.
The conduct of Stalin and Molotov was well known in the west before the war even started. Churchill found meeting these people who had so much blood on their hands a little disturbing. Poland was betrayed in terms of the start of the war but starting a new war to fight a war against the Soviet Union would have been a disaster. The western allies were worn down by the war Stalin didnt understand the concept.
It is always possible to say the West could have done more sooner. Africa Greece Italy all drained Germanys resources however even with all the USA Canada and Commonwealth had to throw at D Day it still was not a walk over and could easily have been a massive defeat.
It is always possible to say the West could have done more sooner. Africa Greece Italy all drained Germanys resources however even with all the USA Canada and Commonwealth had to throw at D Day it still was not a walk over and could easily have been a massive defeat.
