Scoped K98k and Mosin Nagant at the range

[GrauGeist]

Soren, I hope you don't mind me jumping in here, but I just had to mention that the Mauser's iron sights are definately a shooter's friend.

I have a 1912 vintage Mauser that's been in the family for many years, it's caliber is 7x57 m/m. It's mechanical parts are spotless, and the action is stiff, as mention earlier in the thread, but it's deadly accurate at all ranges and is my hunting weapon of choice. I have always been able to draw a solid bead on my target, and get good clean hits every time.

I'll include a photo of it, and you can see that it bears the scars of being through two world wars, the foreward portion of the stock is darkened from being soaked in blood (by the bayonette lug). It also bears odd divots in the wood that was later explained to me as being from swinging it as a club, the divots being the inpressions left by the edges of helmets. There is also blood staining at the receiver and also on the other side of the stock, near the cheek-rest.

It may not be the 8 m/m caliber of the later K98 Mausers, but it's still a top performer!

I'll also toss in a photo of a recent aquisition, a straight-pull Steyer, all numbers matching (it looks as though it was never disassembled) and has the Imperial Austrian crest on it with no reference of Nazi ownership. I ran across some original ammunition for it, some pre-occupation Austrian cartridges bearing the Hapsburg crest and occupation cartridges bearing the Reichs Eagle. It too, is incredibly accurate at moderate distances but I haven't had the chance to try it at any long ranges yet.

I had to mention this as I have been following the conversation regarding the Mauser's iron sights and it's accuracy

 

[Soren]

Those are some very nice examples right there GG, the M98 is a Turk isn't it ?

And about the iron sights, I completely agree, the V sights ar the most accurate providing you have good eyesight, if not the peep sight is better.

 

[GrauGeist]

Those are some very nice examples right there GG, the M98 is a Turk isn't it ?

And about the iron sights, I completely agree, the V sights ar the most accurate providing you have good eyesight, if not the peep sight is better.

Thank You, Soren!

The Mauser has, beleive it or not, Prussian ordinance markings on it, and at the receiver, the Imperial eagle and the date of 1912 directly below it.

The Mauser's bayonette has Imperial German markings and is not the original issued with the rifle. But no surprise there, as things were pretty chaotic so things bound to get mixed up back then. I do have the "frog" that goes with the bayonette's sheath, too.

The Steyr has the Hapsburg Eagle and Austrian ordinance markings on it.

 

[Soren]

Thank You, Soren!

The Mauser has, beleive it or not, Prussian ordinance markings on it, and at the receiver, the Imperial eagle and the date of 1912 directly below it.

The Mauser's bayonette has Imperial German markings and is not the original issued with the rifle. But no surprise there, as things were pretty chaotic so things bound to get mixed up back then. I do have the "frog" that goes with the bayonette's sheath, too.

Aaah I see, then it is probably a rebuilt Kar98b, explaining the stock.

Have you noted wether all the parts have matching numbers ?

 

[GrauGeist]

Aaah I see, then it is probably a rebuilt Kar98b, explaining the stock.

Have you noted wether all the parts have matching numbers ?

All numbers on the weapon are matching

 

[Soren]

All numbers on the weapon are matching

Excellent. Then I'm sure it's a rebuilt Kar98a, a very rare rifle.

I made a mistake regarding it being a Kar98"b", it's not, the Kar98b (Actually its official name was Gew98b) is modernized version of the Gew98 from WW1 and longer than the Karabiner versions of the rifle like the K98a Kar98K. However your rifle is like I said above a rebuilt Kar98a, very rare

 

[Vossy]

Cant lie tho. War of the Rats is a pretty damn well written book even if it is all BS

 

[Glider]

And about the iron sights, I completely agree, the V sights ar the most accurate providing you have good eyesight, if not the peep sight is better.

I don't understand this. Peep sights are always used on target rifles and have proven to be more accurate. In open competition I and most others preferred peep sights to telescopic sights, let alone V sights.

 

[drgondog]

I find peep sights to be far better (for me) on moving targets - I keep both eyes open and swing through just like a shotgun. I am barely aware of the sight.

I have not put a scope on any of my 'non bolt action' rifles. I can no longer score well at 500 with any open sights as my eyes are too close to 20/25+ but still shoot moving targets well

 

[Soren]

Well every man has his preference, but the eagle eyes at my shooting club prefer the V-sights when shooting over open sights. The others, which is the majority, prefer the peep sights.

 

[GrauGeist]

Well every man has his preference, but the eagle eyes at my shooting club prefer the V-sights when shooting over open sights. The others, which is the majority, prefer the peep sights.

I have to say that I score better with a V-sight than with a peep-sight.

And that may be due to using the V-sight more often. And I too use both eyes, whether I'm lead-shooting or lining up on a static target, the V is just gives me better control.

 

[drgondog]

Doe sanyone know what pressures the Sellier Bellot 196 gr is designed for?

Or the s.S 198?

What barrel length for the velocities published?

 

[Soren]

The thing that is designed to withstand certain pressures is the 8x57mm cartridge, which is the same as the 30.06 = 60,000 + psi.

Std. European 8x57mm loads are ~48,000 psi IIRC, same as the German military sS round, but they can reach 60,000 psi (LW ammo). The American loads are usually grossly underpowered and none meet the European std., the reason being a fear of full power 8x57mm ammo being fired through the old M1888 rifle which wont handle the pressures.

The M98 action will handle 70,000+ psi so nothing to worry about there. (Just remember that the Mauser 1888 won't handle the loads, so be sure it's a M98)

At 48,000 psi the sS round's MV out of a 600mm barrell is 760 m/s (Some list 775 m/s). I chronographed a 1938 batch of 198 gr sS ammo to an average of just over 780 m/s through my K98k, the higher velocity probably stemming from the storage of this old ammo crystalizing the powder particles.

As for Sellier Bellot's ammo, the pressures are around 47,000 to 48,000 psi, firing the 196 gr bullet at 790 m/s through a 600mm barrel.

 

[drgondog]

The thing that is designed to withstand certain pressures is the 8x57mm cartridge, which is the same as the 30.06 = 60,000 + psi.

I am curious about the S&B powder primer combos. I load my 30-06 (24" shilen, M700 action and 23" barrel w/M70 pre-64) both with 58.0 gr RL22, F210 primers and winchester brass- and they shoot very well with 200gr Accubonds ~ 2690-2730 fps. From various references the pressure appears to be in the 56,000-58,000 psi range and shows zero signs of pressure. I check head diameter and measure case expansion as well as the usual suspects.

I noticed that all the US 8x57 loads are much tamer in the Nosler and Hogdon manuals but the 8mm-06 has slightly only slightly lower ballistics with 200gr Accubond and 55gr IMR4350~2630fps than the 30-06 load above. RL 22 is a slower burning powder which should help explain similar pressures.



Std. European 8x57mm loads are ~48,000 psi IIRC, same as the German military sS round, but they can reach 60,000 psi (LW ammo). The American loads are usually grossly underpowered and none meet the European std., the reason being a fear of full power 8x57mm ammo being fired through the old M1888 rifle which wont handle the pressures.

The M98 action will handle 70,000+ psi so nothing to worry about there. (Just remember that the Mauser 1888 won't handle the loads, so be sure it's a M98)

At 48,000 psi the sS round's MV out of a 600mm barrell is 760 m/s (Some list 775 m/s). I chronographed a 1938 batch of 198 gr sS ammo to an average of just over 780 m/s through my K98k, the higher velocity probably stemming from the storage of this old ammo crystalizing the powder particles.

As for Sellier Bellot's ammo, the pressures are around 47,000 to 48,000 psi, firing the 196 gr bullet at 790 m/s through a 600mm barrel.

I wonder if they are using RL 15 or Viht N150?

 

[Soren]

I am curious about the S&B powder primer combos. I load my 30-06 (24" shilen, M700 action and 23" barrel w/M70 pre-64) both with 58.0 gr RL22, F210 primers and winchester brass- and they shoot very well with 200gr Accubonds ~ 2690-2730 fps. From various references the pressure appears to be in the 56,000-58,000 psi range and shows zero signs of pressure. I check head diameter and measure case expansion as well as the usual suspects.

I noticed that all the US 8x57 loads are much tamer in the Nosler and Hogdon manuals but the 8mm-06 has slightly only slightly lower ballistics with 200gr Accubond and 55gr IMR4350~2630fps than the 30-06 load above. RL 22 is a slower burning powder which should help explain similar pressures.

You can load the 8x57mm up to 58,000 psi with no pressure signs in the K98k at all (Only thing you notice is the unusually beastie kick), the cartridge completely intact and the bolt cycling smoothly, that I've tried many times and know. However I haven't tried at pressures beyond that. But LW 7.92mm ammunition, the so called V-patronen, were loaded to pressures in the 60,000 + psi range and according to Peter Senich snipers often used this to gain an extra 150m effective range, and the K98k handled these loads easily.

PS: I wouldn't use 60,000+ psi loads in my old Mauser, I want it to last and I'm not taking any risks with it, and I'd advice anyone of the same as-well.

Also if a cartridge should burst for some reason then there's nothing to fear safety wise with a M98 as it has overpressure vents. Strongest and safest action out there, no doubt.

I wonder if they are using RL 15 or Viht N150?

Beats me really. Haven't got any of it in stock, but maybe you should contact them ?

 

[TempestMKV]

760 m/s is plenty fast Charles, and the effective range of the German round is a good deal longer than that of any Allied round (Watch tables below). The US marine sniper's std. sniping round is the 172gr M118 FMJ-BT (BC: .494) which has a MV of 730 m/s and is fired very accurately out to 900m. The 7.92mm 12.8 g sS projectile can be fired accurately at even longer ranges.

For excellent long range accuracy you need a heavy, stable and very low drag projectile (Streamlined), muzzle velocity is of less importance.
A WW2 German sniper was easily capable of taking down a standing man at 800+ m meters with one shot, and like the veterans specialists say chest hits were achieved out to beyond 800m without fail for experienced snipers. German snipers used to pick off Allied soldiers all the way out to 1,200m, just to show the Allies that they couldn't even feel safe at that range. However it was recommended not to shoot until the target was within atmost 800m, as target ID was then possible.

G7 = Drag function for FMJ-BT projectiles
G1 = Drag function for most projectiles incl. FMJ spitzers.

7.92mm 12.8 g (198 gr) sS Geschoss (FMJ-BT), BC = .584, MV = 760 m/s:
Max range

Ballistics / Trajectory

7.62mm 9.7 g (150 gr) M2 Ball (FMJ Spitzer), BC = .420, MV = 853 m/s:
Max range

Ballistics / Trajectory

Soren, could u explain to me why k98k projectile outpeformed Browning 0.5?

0.5BMG, 12.7mm weight=48.6g, BC=1.0 MV=867m/s
K98k , 7.92mm. weight=12.8g, BC=0.584 MV= 760m/s

At 1000m,.50 is 479m/s, 7.92mm is around 520m/s. So，a lower MV, lighter, lower BC ,7.92mm projectile outperforms a heavier, higer MV, higher BC 12.7mm???

 

[Soren]

Tempest I believe the guy who made that chart might have used the wrong drag function, which would explain the difference. Ur supposed to G7 for FMJ-BT projectiles and G1 for flat based spitzers.

 

[renrich]

According to a recent article by Major John Plaster(Ret) USAR, a Timothy Murphy, sharpshooter in the Continental Army, at the Battle of Saratoga, 1777, took down a British general, Simon Fraser, with a single shot at about 330 yards. He was using a muzzle loading rifle with iron sights. There were numerous examples of snipers in the War Between the States using rifles such as the British Whitworth with an optical sight making shots at 500-600 yards and even further.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Hey Guys,
I'm in kind of late in the game, but here is something worth considering: The Ballistic Coefficient of most rifle caliber projectiles is not a constant. It varies according to the velocity. This might be a rehash for some of you out there, but the Ballistic Coefficient is an adjustment factor in comparison with a known standard bullet. Back around 1900, a standard 1 inch diameter bullet (Krupp Standard) was fired at various ranges and the velocity loss was recorded. This became the G1 standard (BC=1.00). Other flat base bullets fly worse (mostly because they are much smaller) which is why the BC is typically under 1.00. A good approximation for shape for the Krupp bullet would be a 500 grain Lyman bullet for the .45-70. The G7 is shaped more like we expect of rifle bullets today: Boat Tail Spitzer.

In any case, with most bullets, the BC is only an approximation. It typically is only accurate for a certain velocity range and will change a bit if the velocity is outside that range. It typically gets worse as the bullet goes slower. Also, the BC is calculated for a nice pristine bullet. A real bullet will fly worse because it may have upset a little in firing and has these nasty draggy rifling grooves in it.

BTW, I watched the You-Tube video that was quoted earlier of a Mauser Kar.98k at 900 yards. That was pretty good shooting by the fellow involved, but IMHO has nearly no relation to a WW2 era German sniper rifle. The rifle was glass bedded, the scope is a Bushnell 5-15x 40 mm, the ammunition is handloads with hollow point boat tail match bullets.

Also, IMHO, the accuracy of a bullet has nearly nothing to do with its form factor. The form factor only determines how well it retains its velocity. The accuracy is determined by the consistency of construction for the most part. Absolute accuracy records today (Benchrest shooting) are typically held by little bitty flat base bullets. A .45-70 for example uses a bullet that doesn't look very streamlined, but it retains it velocity much better than most .30 caliber bullets and doesn't have the transonic problems that the modern .30 cal match bullets seem to have. As for precision, When I cast .458 diameter bullets that are in the 460 grain range, I cull ones that are outside a 1.5 grain range.

- Ivan.

 

[vikingBerserker]

That's total BS. Why ?
1.) There were no German snipers in Stalingrad.

Are you sure about that? "199 Days The Battle for Stalingrad" By Edwin Palmer Hoyt talks about German Snipers in Stalingrad.