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Do you realize if they advanced even 40 miles in the first day ( depending on where they landed) on Oahu, they'd be back in the water.
If they landed on the most likely northwest coast, it was only about 6 miles to Schofield Barracks down the central valley.
If this fictional invasion caught them unaware as the actual air attack did, just how effective a defense would they have mounted ?
I concur in the main, but believe that it was more IJ's perception of the apparent significant risk and the difficulties of securing both their strategic objectives in SEA AND neutralizing the US fleet that made a HI invasion too big a mouthful to digest. I tend to concur with Pars that a smarter move would have been to not raid PH but rather confine their activities to acquiring SE Asian oil and resources and aggressively pursue the isolation of Oz. All while awaiting the inevitable arrival of the US battle fleet in home waters. Sic transit the US Pacific fleet and US Far Eastern forces... I expect.... Because they never fully grasped that, that bought us time. ...
The Japanese had a good plan. Think about it. On 7 December 1941, were they thinking Midway? That wasn't even in their plan. Those resources were to be devoted to their plan in the Western Pacific. Midway turned out to be a sucker play for them because it was going off on a frolic of their own that wasn't in their plan. How would the course of the war had gone differently had they stuck-out their plan? If we're weighing it against a Pearl plan, that's how it should be weighed. Throw out Midway, it never happened. They didn't grasp the significance of Pearl, I think, because they already had a good plan.I concur in the main, but believe that it was more IJ's perception of the apparent significant risk and the difficulties of securing both their strategic objectives in SEA AND neutralizing the US fleet that made a HI invasion too big a mouthful to digest. I tend to concur with Pars that a smarter move would have been to not raid PH but rather confine their activities to acquiring SE Asian oil and resources and aggressively pursue the isolation of Oz. All while awaiting the inevitable arrival of the US battle fleet in home waters. Sic transit the US Pacific fleet and US Far Eastern forces... I expect.
The strike force was over 280 miles away when they launched to avoid detection. Sending in a large landing fleet would have increased significantly the risk of alerting the Americans. As it were, the fleet would have been spotted by 0600 off the coast even if it was caused by gun fire. This would have given the AAF over one and a half hours to alert their crews and prepare their aircraft.The element of surprise is absolutely key in this situation, however, as historically happened, the Japanese were able to close their taskforce within striking range unchallenged and delivered a series of attacks while everyone on Oahu were enjoying the start of a relaxed Sunday.
With this in mind, assault forces closing under the cover of the night/dawn to coincide their approach during the air attacks (on or before 7:00 a.m. as originally occurred) would certainly offer positive results.
The bulk of U.S. forces were in and around the vicinity of Pearl with a few auxillary fields and air stations about the island. These smaller fields did not have a large amount of first line aircraft that would have been able to muster more than token resistance.
Two mountain ranges with limited easily defended passes, like Pali Pass, running from north to south along the east and west coast of Oahu would make invasions here risky due to limited maneuver room and overlooking high ground. This would be similar to the Japanese attempt to take Port Moresby. The only viable invasion route would be on the north shore and down through the middle. But, this route takes the Japanese directly into the strength of the defending forces. See pix (from wikipedia) of east coast, west coast, and topological.The Japanese multiple landing zones would most likely be along the western, northern and eastern shorelines and the IJA was no strangers to rough tropical terrain.
If Nagumo follows through with the three attack waves that were planned, then carry on with follow up strikes while the battleship/cruiser force closes to offer close support while the U.S. fleet was being neutralized, the situation would be very difficult for the U.S. forces.
As poor as communications actually were, it seems to me that trying to muster defenses against Japanese landing forces to the north, east and west would have been nearly impossible, especially while everyone was keeping their heads down during the initial air attacks.
Within minutes after the first torpedoes and bombs struck at Pearl Harbor, General Short issued orders that put the Hawaiian Department on a full war footing. By 8:45 a.m. his headquarters had begun to operate a forward command post located in tunnels at the Aliamanu Crater, three miles west of Fort Shafter. Between 8:20 and 9:00 a.m. the major ground commands-the Hawaiian Coast Artillery Command and the 24th and 25th Infantry Divisions-received word to deploy and take the actions required under a No. 3 Alert. Actually, all three had begun so to act before they got the formal word. The 24th Division had a battalion of infantry on the road from Schofield Barracks to its assigned battle position by 9:00 a.m., and thereafter other divisional units left Schofield as soon as they had drawn and loaded their ammunition and otherwise prepared for action. By late afternoon, all divisional elements were digging in at their assigned field positions, with all weapons except heavy howitzers at hand and ready to fire. As General Short put it, in the deployment "everything clicked," one of his junior officers explaining: "We had gone so many times to our war positions that it just seemed like drill when they were firing at us." 57 The deployment showed clearly enough that the Hawaiian Department was thoroughly prepared to resist invasion, however unready it was against the peril of surprise air attack.
Oldcrowcv63 said:Only in retrospect, with the advantage of hindsight can we see that the US defenses were a relatively hollow shell against the skill and might of Kido Butai. A comparison with the PI campaign provides a hint of the ultimate outcome. defending the PI were some 90 P-40 fighters and 34 B-17 bombers (ineffective in a tactical role) with roughly 30 thousand ground troops (12,000 US Philipine Scouts ~20,000 PA). Against the larger number of US troops and A/C on Oahu was the absence of a pre-planned natural redoubt like the Bataan peninsula and Corregidor. Against the concentration of US airpower on Oahu was the large number of aircraft on Kido Butai carriers (>400 A/C).
Parsifal said:no, i didnt check , but its about 8 miles north South and about 14 miles east west. The area of the island is, i believe about 14 square miles, compared to 30 square miles for Saipan. Maximum elevation is about 4500 feet. importantly it is just one of the islands in the group, though it is the main naval base
And yet the Island's defenses didn't spring into action as the Japanese aircraft passed overland but virtually as the bombs were falling...Originally Posted by GrauGeist: The element of surprise is absolutely key in this situation, however, as historically happened, the Japanese were able to close their taskforce within striking range unchallenged and delivered a series of attacks while everyone on Oahu were enjoying the start of a relaxed Sunday.
The strike force was over 280 miles away when they launched to avoid detection. Sending in a large landing fleet would have increased significantly the risk of alerting the Americans. As it were, the fleet would have been spotted by 0600 off the coast even if it was caused by gun fire. This would have given the AAF over one and a half hours to alert their crews and prepare their aircraft.
Yep, you found one of my many typos...The air attack commenced at approximately 0750.Originally Posted by GrauGeist: With this in mind, assault forces closing under the cover of the night/dawn to coincide their approach during the air attacks (on or before 7:00 a.m. OR as originally occurred) would certainly offer positive results.
And the initial airstrikes pass right over Schofield Barracks...along the highway the that attack flights followed, leading them right to Pearl. And Schofeild Barracks took a beating in the air attack as it was. As did Bellows, Wheeler, Hickam and Kaneohe fields. The Japanese did miss the auxillery fields at Kahuku, Haleiwa and Mokuleia. Haleiwa was where several P-40s were able to get up and engage the Japanese, downing several.Wheeler airfield and Schofield barracks are in the middle of the island 10-15 miles away from the sea shore.Originally Posted by GrauGeist: The bulk of U.S. forces were in and around the vicinity of Pearl with a few auxillary fields and air stations about the island. These smaller fields did not have a large amount of first line aircraft that would have been able to muster more than token resistance.
The Japanese had over 400 aircraft at their disposal (from 6 CVs) although (obviously) not all were committed. And as we have seen, the air raids did indeed catch the U.S. forces off guard and the U.S. fighters that did get up, made a phenomenal effort, but came up short.Two mountain ranges with limited easily defended passes, like Pali Pass, running from north to south along the east and west coast of Oahu would make invasions here risky due to limited maneuver room and overlooking high ground. This would be similar to the Japanese attempt to take Port Moresby. The only viable invasion route would be on the north shore and down through the middle. But, this route takes the Japanese directly into the strength of the defending forces. See pix (from wikipedia) of east coast, west coast, and topological.
General Short, while being out to lunch as far as airborne attack, was apparently very diligent in preparing for an invasion and rehearsed defensive tactics often.
I think you are underestimating the quality of forces on Oahu verses PI. There were about 17000 US forces in the PI, some were guard units(Wikipedia) vs about 43,000 Army troops in Hawaii, and these were apparently well trained on counter-invasion activities by Gen. Short, who had no concept on defense from air attack. If I remember correctly, most of the new pilots at PI were right out of flight training. I suspect the pilots at Oahu were much better and indeed the few that got into the air performed bravely and effectively. Only about 10 AAF planes got aloft and they shot down as many as 6 Japanese. The Japanese two raids only consisted of 43 and 35 A6M respectively. I suspect that if these raids had been met by 40-60 P-40s with this quality of pilots the air battle would have changed considerably.
That's an understatement, I feel like I'm in the planning room! Let me just throw this out, what about the neck of the harbor? Would it be possible to bottleneck that? That would at least "contain" the fleet. That really wasn't necessary in the surprise attack, but now that they're invading, I'd think they're thinking of that...I agree with Balljoint, this has been an educational thread for me.
is there a lee side for the island. generally in the pacific, there are islands with more shelter on one side, and it was from these directions that most invasions would be planned. The famous surf at oahu might pose more of an issue over just being great surf....
GrauGeist said:And yet the Island's defenses didn't spring into action as the Japanese aircraft passed overland
And the initial airstrikes pass right over Schofield Barracks...along the highway the that attack flights followed, leading them right to Pearl. And Schofeild Barracks took a beating in the air attack as it was. As did Bellows, Wheeler, Hickam and Kaneohe fields. The Japanese did miss the auxillery fields at Kahuku, Haleiwa and Mokuleia. Haleiwa was where several P-40s were able to get up and engage the Japanese, downing several.
We also might be underestimating the quality of the IJA troops. Since Japan has been already at war and an invasion of this caliber would not be seeing green troops committed, but rather combat seasoned troops rotated out of other areas for this operation.
Don't confuse the ineptitude of high command with the grit of the US service men. Yes they had not experienced combat but when outnumbered and their backs against the wall, they fought ferociously. Just look at the defense of Bataan, Wake Island, and the second wave at Pearl Harbor, where even the Japanese was surprised at the intensity of the defense. If well led and trained, which is quite reasonable given the reactions after the attack, and armed with the M1 rifle, giving the American soldier fire power the Japanese had never encountered, I would not bet against the American soldier or sailor.That being considered, how well would the U.S. troops perform, the vast majority having never been in combat?
Also, Japanese have severely weakened the Naval and Army air assets, which establishes air superiority or soon will, with successive air attacks and CAP sweeps.
Like I mentioned before in this possible situation, the assets intended for the invasion of Alaska would be diverted to the invasion of Hawaii and augmented as much as possible to ensure success.
If the air attack commenced prior to the landings, the U.S. defenses would be on high alert (as they were) but how well would they be ready to deal with the landings? Add to this, the fact that the bulk of the U.S. 7th fleet is burning and sinking in the harbor as the IJN battleships and cruisers are closing in to assist the landing forces?
So this scenario is calling for the same relaxed attitude on that morning, the same failure in communications, the same failure in radar recognition (and again, communications), the same failure in aircraft dispersal, the same failure with locked ammunition access, the same failure in active command, the same capital ships with cold boilers and on and on....so many mistakes were made that morning. These is the conditions that I am proposing that exist when the Japanese come not only with aircraft, but an invasion.
That's an understatement, I feel like I'm in the planning room! Let me just throw this out, what about the neck of the harbor? Would it be possible to bottleneck that? That would at least "contain" the fleet. That really wasn't necessary in the surprise attack, but now that they're invading, I'd think they're thinking of that...
Not necessarily. Consider this. Consider their splitting the forces and the timing. They're closing in from different directions. The carriers strike first along with the subs. The subs are going for the mouth of the harbor and they're undetected until they're pretty much there. They draw out the destroyers in single file and torpedo just one as it's making its way out and they close up that channel like a vault. At the same time the planes are coming in and wreaking havoc. The pressure is taken off the invasion forces as they're landing at any number of selected beaches as we're forced to split our forces to oppose them. Consider this a rough draft.If an invasion fleet was spotted before the air attack, all bets are off.
They very nearly succeeded with the USS Nevada as it was making a run for the open sea, but the skipper kept a cool head as it was coming under serious attack and ran her aground near Hospital Point to prevent her from blocking the harborLet me just throw this out, what about the neck of the harbor? Would it be possible to bottleneck that? That would at least "contain" the fleet. That really wasn't necessary in the surprise attack, but now that they're invading, I'd think they're thinking of that...