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RG_Lunatic said:There were only a handful of NW European "tank battles", and these generally consisted of the German's being on the defensive, in which case aircraft had a hard time spotting the tanks until battle was engaged, and then it was difficult to attack them because of FF risks. When the German's did attack, it was usually under cover of bad weather.
So far, everything you've presented represents the British experiance with the 7.62cm/3" RP's, a very different weapon than the 5" HVAR. Amoung other differences, the RP's were known to be much less accurate than the HVAR's both because of the fin design and the much weaker rocket engine and thus slower acceleration, and less effective because of the much smaller payload.
British RP's were not even developed for ground attack, they were intended for AA use and then adapted to ground attack because they were plentiful.
Finally, I'm not saying that in terms of the pure accuracy a 5" HVAR was anything close to as accurate as a cannon. If the plane had the time and freedom to setup and attack, the cannon were much more accurate, but doing so in W. Europe after D-Day was nearly suicide. For the kind of attacks that were being conducted in W. Europe in late '44 and '45, namely 300 mph single passes into heavily defended positions, the HVAR was probably more effective. At such speeds with a cannon you would get maybe two rounds off, where you could fire up to 8-10 rockets.
Tony Williams said:RG_Lunatic said:There were only a handful of NW European "tank battles", and these generally consisted of the German's being on the defensive, in which case aircraft had a hard time spotting the tanks until battle was engaged, and then it was difficult to attack them because of FF risks. When the German's did attack, it was usually under cover of bad weather.
In tne Mortain batttle, Allied fighter-bomber claimed 252 tanks destroyed in a four-day period. In the one month of fighting in the Ardennes Salient (which was more difficult country - hilly and wooded - and the weather was initially bad) they claimed 324 tanks and 89 other armoured vehicles destroyed. Clearly, they were able to see and attack them. Unfortunately their claims for hits proved to be wildly optimistic.
Tony Williams said:Finally, I'm not saying that in terms of the pure accuracy a 5" HVAR was anything close to as accurate as a cannon. If the plane had the time and freedom to setup and attack, the cannon were much more accurate, but doing so in W. Europe after D-Day was nearly suicide. For the kind of attacks that were being conducted in W. Europe in late '44 and '45, namely 300 mph single passes into heavily defended positions, the HVAR was probably more effective. At such speeds with a cannon you would get maybe two rounds off, where you could fire up to 8-10 rockets.
On the contrary, the much flatter trajectory and shorter time of flight of cannon shells made them much easier to line up and quicker to use. RP firing needed more careful preparation if you were going to stand much chance of a hit. Yes, you could volley RPs to make up in quantity what you lacked in accuracy, but even the careful, single-aimed shot approach of the British big-gun planes allowed them to fire four times on each attack (i.e. 8 shots form the Hurri's 40mm guns), which was enough to hit the target.
I think if you investigate you will find the "60 pounder" was in fact refering to the total weight of the warhead
RG_Lunatic said:Every source I've seen refers to the British supplied rockets as being of 3.5" diameter. This may well have been the outside diameter, with a 3" rocket being inside the 3.5" casing. That'd just be a standards and nomenclature issue.
Yes, I've seen references to the 4.5" FFAR (I think it was designated FFAR) as well, and perhaps this represents a different warhead on the same 3.5" rocket? In any case these were the tube fired things and they were a failure.
The US nomenclature for the British type 3.5" rocket is FFAR (Forward Firing Arial Rocket), and this term is also used for the 5" version, which had the same rocket motor. The 5" FFAR was found to be unsuitable by the USN because of it's inaccuracy and low speed, but perhaps the British used their own variation of this anyway? In any case, to support the 5" warhead the USA developed the HVAR.
I think if you investigate you will find the "60 pounder" was in fact refering to the total weight of the warhead, not HE payload. If it did refer to just the HE payload, that'd mean a warhead weighing something on the order of 150+ lbs!
I agree conditions were different in W. Europe than in N. Africa and the Stepps of Russia, in many ways, resulting in different results.
As for the claims for Korea, there is often film to back it up (I have lots of 8mm Korean war Skyraider footage and combat assement photos). One thing is clear in Korea, hitting the tank with an HVAR was often not enough to take it out of action. Most attacks were to the sides, and the most frequent damage damage was to the tracks or wheels.
Tony Williams said:The diameter of the body of the RP may have been 3.5 inches (although the diameter of the 60 lb HE warhead was considerably larger), but I've never heard it referred to as a '3.5 inch rocket'. It is generally known as the RP (for Rocket Projectile), sometimes the 3 inch RP or 3 inch rocket, for the diameter of the motor.
Tony Williams said:Why would it use the British 3 inch motor? It was American, not British, and was of 4.5 inch diameter anyway. FFAR stands for 'Folding Fin Aircraft (or Aerial, or Air-launched) Rocket' - the fins have to fold to fit into the launch tube, they spring out on launching - but this term was I think first coined to describe postwar rockets in multiple pods (which have been highly successful), not the 4.5 inch.
Tony Williams said:Re FFAR - see my comment above; ever heard of a backward firing aerial rocket?. The term FFAR does not apply to any British rockets of this period - they all had fixed fins. I don't know anything about a 5" FFAR; if there was such a thing it wasn't British AFAIK.
Tony Williams said:If you read my earlier post you will see that's exactly what I said; a 60 lb warhead with 14 lb of TNT.
Tony Williams said:As I've said, the results were different because the weapons were different. The Russians did have RPs (in fact they were the first to use them) but found them too inaccurate to be effective against single tank targets. They PTAB cluster-bomb was their best anti-tank weapon, but the British and Americans had nothing like it.
Tony Williams said:Camera gun footage which is released to the public tends to be selected to show the successes - which may be only a very small percentage of the attacks. So it does nothing to prove how accurate such rocket attacks were in general. And I've never argued that rockets couldn't hit tanks, just that they rarely did in the WW2 timeframe which is what we're talking about, so made an unsatisfactory anti-tank weapon (although they were very destructive against area targets).
MOAB all the way...
cheddar cheese said:British items are famed for their lack of build quality, only behind the Italians...
cheddar cheese said:British items are famed for their lack of build quality, only behind the Italians...