The Battle of Rourke's Drift

[Njaco]

I believe the only section to actually get into a proper line and fight like a British soldier at Isandlwana was Durnford's unit. It was when the left gave way that he would be surrounded, so he backed towards the hill and trench.

Still trying to find that website. It was excellent. Gave the battle and the aftermath including what happened to the VC winners. Chard and Bromhead IIRC didn't live for another 10 or 15 years after. And Hitch's VC was stolen several times.

Found It!!

Rorke's Drift, 1879 - The highest number of Victoria Crosses awarded to a regiment for one action

You really have to take some time and check this site out. Interesting fact: Colour-sergeant Bourne died on 8 May 1945!

 

[renrich]

In my extensive research about British Army tactics of the 18th and 19th century accomplished by reading all of Cornwell's Richard Sharpe stories, LOL, I have determined that forming a square was an excellent tactic against cavalry. Kidding aside, it is easy to see how a square with properly trained soldiers equipped with smooth bore muskets and bayonets would be formidable against horse soldiers and would seem to be a good tactic against Zulus, although as Kipling said the Fuzzie Wuzzies broke a British square.

 

[Emac44]

Renrich The Square had been used in many Battles by British Soldiers. One being the Squares formed at Waterloo. But that isn't to say that was basic Military Formation. The Gloscesters Regiment for example on their Cap Badges wear one forward on their caps and one smaller cap badge to the rear of their cap. And at the moment I can't recall which battle it was that the Gloscester Regiment had to form a line and face both directions in Battle as attacks were coming from Front and Rear. But one thing the British Soldier emphasis during those Colonial Days was seldom under Estimated by the British People themselves as the British Soldier was the symbol of the British Empire just as Queen Victoria was herself. Songs like The Soldiers of the Queen from that period of time. I can give you an example. Edward Woodward the British Actor in an Australian Movie played Breaker Morant (Harry Harbord Morant) in the movie The Breaker. He was English but had migrated to Australia and at the time joined the Army and had been shipped to South Africa during the Boer War. In the movie Woodward sung the song Soldiers of the Queen. It is a most stirring anthem for the British Soldier and would have been during Victorian Times. You mentioned Rudyard Kipling and his books of Colonial India spring to my mind. One being Kym and later when Lord Baden Powell had began the Boy Scout Movement, The stories of Kym played significant training and learning in the Boy Scout Movement. As well the names from Kiplings book the Jungle Book. Its funny when I see the old Disney Movie of the Jungle Book and different charactors names are mentioned. I don't think of the cartoon movie but of Scout Masters I knew when I was an Air Scout. I remember my Scout Master Begarah teaching me Bush Craft and Orienteering Map reading and using a compass for bearings. And Observation. And you know what is really strange I haven't forgotten any of it. I still know how to compass bear and read a map. I still observe and take note of what is around me. And I remember very well BushCraft and reading signs and tracking taught to me as an Air Scout. Kipling and Powell came from the well spring of the British Army. Though mostly the stories from Kipling now play little in the Scouting Movement of today. Sometimes I am amazed that the Scouting Movement recognises Lord Baden Powell as the founder of the Boy Scout Movement

 

[Njaco]

Didn't the fuzzy-wuzzies defeat a square during the Battle of El Obeid? For what its worth found this on Wiki:

Battle of El Obeid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Either by mistake or by design, their guides led them astray, and they soon found themselves surrounded. The regular's morale plummeted and they started to desert en masse. After marching for some time they were set upon by the entire Mahdist army on November 3rd. The Egyptian forces quickly formed into a defensive square. According to reports published in England soon after, the square held for two days before finally collapsing. About one-third of the Egyptian soldiers surrendered and were later freed, while all the officers were killed. Only about 500 Egyptian troops managed to escape and make it back to Khartoum. Neither Hicks nor any of his senior officers were among them. Apparently only two or three Europeans survived."

My bold. Was this true?

 

[Juha]

IMHO a good book on Zulu War and on Rourke's Drift is Morris' The Washing Of The Spear.

On Martini-Henry, on those far-off days before Political Correctness there was a game at Imperial War Museum where one ought to shoot down IIRC 8 attacking Zulus with a Martini-Henry replica with 10 rounds or the Zulus got the shooter. IIRC the game was rather realistic. IIRC Martini-Henry replica was rather heavy when compared to Assault Rifle 62 which we used at that time in the Finnish Army and ROF seemed reasonable for a single shot rifle. And one didn't have too much time to aim if one wanted to manage to shoot all 8 before some got to spear throwing distance. Of course there was no kick when firing the rifle and no fear to be speared within a minute. Additionally the rifle was fixed onto the game machine near the muzzle end of the barrel. Maybe because of the technical reasons but that made hitting at greater distances much easier.

Juha

 

[renrich]

In reading about Isandlwana online it mentioned that some of the soldiers did form square but were overwhelmed by numbers. As a Boy Scout in the 40s, I remember the mention often of Baden Powell. Kipling has always been my favorite poetry.

 

[Emac44]

In reading about Isandlwana online it mentioned that some of the soldiers did form square but were overwhelmed by numbers. As a Boy Scout in the 40s, I remember the mention often of Baden Powell. Kipling has always been my favorite poetry.

It wasn't just Poetry but a way of life in Colonial India that Kipling wrote about Renrich. Kipling's Kym also mentioned Russian Spies in around the Afghan/Indian Border Regions. And history tells us that did occur I could be wrong about Isandlwana about Soldiers forming Squares.

Little bit of a Scouting snippet here Renrich.

My Father met Lord Baden Powell at the Boy Scout Jamborree in Frankston Victoria in 1932. And of course shook hands with the man himself (Left Hand). When Dad was in Ubon Thailand he related this to a Thai Boy Scout. The Thai Boy Scout revered my Father with near celebrity status for shaking hands with Lord Baden Powell. And would you believe Renrich I still have my Scouting Scarves Link Badges Troop Badges and District Badges. And also my Belt and woggle. And I was thinking I might put them on the website. Would you as 1 old Boy Scout to another be interested in seeing them

I have already placed them on a Thread in Personal Gallery. Calling all Scouts Guides Cubs and Brownies. Hope you enjoy what I put there Renrich

 

[renrich]

I would enjoy seeing those, Emac. I believe the British that formed square were out of ammo and had nothing left but bayonets. A scary thought.

 

[plan_D]

I love this; non-British discussing the British Empire and not throwing a single piece of manure at Britain. Excellent reading. Never gave myself enough time to look into the British Empire in Africa or India; especially not the war fighting. Watching "Zulu" is the closest I ever came to learning about the British "Red Coat" there.

Anyway, carry on, it's good to see people discuss the British Empire with a neutral view-point for once instead of damning it for the imperialism.

 

[Njaco]

Plan, got nothing like that against the UK as the same could probably be said for the US the last 100 years or other countries at different times - through the Romans and the Vikings, etc.

I don't believe that they were able to form squares at Isandhlwana...

"Pulleine deployed two guns and some companies to the east of the NNC camas others on the left took up a position to cover the retreat of Cavaye and Mostyn who fell back to form their right front. The whole line was a mile and a half long from Young-Husband on the left to Scott on the conical hill to the east and faced north and north-east."

from rorkesdriftvc.com - Isandhlwana

The movie Zulu Dawn had it fairly correct in that they used lines instead of squares.

 

[Emac44]

I love this; non-British discussing the British Empire and not throwing a single piece of manure at Britain. Excellent reading. Never gave myself enough time to look into the British Empire in Africa or India; especially not the war fighting. Watching "Zulu" is the closest I ever came to learning about the British "Red Coat" there.

Anyway, carry on, it's good to see people discuss the British Empire with a neutral view-point for once instead of damning it for the imperialism.

Come on Plan you know me better than that. The British Empire is important to Australian History as its fundamentaly linked to Australia. Without the British Empire and Colonialism I wouldn't be here nor would Australia.

But seeing I am like any good Aussie I will take a tongue in cheek swipe at you Poms when the opportunity arises. And you of all people should know the ramifications and history of the British Empire.

I am surprised that you do not Shame Shame Shame on you Plan. Fancy a good old Pom like yourself leaving the discussion of the British Empire to 2 Americans and an Australian. Dog my cats I thought I would never see the day a Pom stuck on a subject he should know but doesn't. Ooops the opportunity rose I think mate

 

[Emac44]

I would enjoy seeing those, Emac. I believe the British that formed square were out of ammo and had nothing left but bayonets. A scary thought.

Scout mementos already posted Renrich

 

[Njaco]

Gotta keep the Empire alive cause you bloody british aren't doin' it!

Plan, the history is actually pretty fascinating. I've read Churchill's personnal account of his time in the Sudan (gotta get past that late 1800's vernacular!) and one of my favorite books is "Queen Victorias Little Wars". Pretty good read, covers from the end of Waterloo up to the Boxer rebellion. Gives a good primer course of that time period.

 

[Emac44]

Gotta keep the Empire alive cause you bloody british aren't doin' it!

Plan, the history is actually pretty fascinating. I've read Churchill's personnal account of his time in the Sudan (gotta get past that late 1800's vernacular!) and one of my favorite books is "Queen Victorias Little Wars". Pretty good read, covers from the end of Waterloo up to the Boxer rebellion. Gives a good primer course of that time period.

Bloody terrible Njaco. Here are 2 Americans and 1 Aussie discussing the British Empire and the Poms who should be involved play mumbley peg on the side lines. Plan we are waving the Union Jack Talking about Queen Victoria and her Empire and you sit there observing. No wonder the Empire fell Njaco the Poms lost interest

 

[renrich]

A minor point but in rereading the account online I noted the following: "The 24th fought to the bitter end at Isandhlwana. When their ammunition ran out they fought with bayonets in squares until the Zulus finally overcame them through sheer weight of numbers." I have been an admirer of British military history since I read every one of CS Forester's Hornblower books as a teenager.

 

[Njaco]

I must have missed that Ren, good find. I always thought the square wasn't used but must be the resources I've read never mentioned it. I can see small groups with the line broke, forming into what they know and trying to defend themselves.

 

[plan_D]

Gotta keep the Empire alive cause you bloody british aren't doin' it!

Don't get me started on that! The Mayor of Bradford banned the St.Georges Day parade ... surprise, surprise, he's a Muslim!

I'm just enjoying our colonials admiration of the Empire, Emac. It's taken 200 years for this world to finally realise what a magnificent achievement the British Empire was.

My history reading hasn't gotten to Africa and India yet; the jewel of the British Empire doesn't interest me, and Africa... well, Africa is just there. If it's naval history of the time, then I'll be glad to help.

 

[Emac44]

Don't get me started on that! The Mayor of Bradford banned the St.Georges Day parade ... surprise, surprise, he's a Muslim!

I'm just enjoying our colonials admiration of the Empire, Emac. It's taken 200 years for this world to finally realise what a magnificent achievement the British Empire was.

My history reading hasn't gotten to Africa and India yet; the jewel of the British Empire doesn't interest me, and Africa... well, Africa is just there. If it's naval history of the time, then I'll be glad to help.

Its not such as admiration Plan. Its a realisation without the British Empire I wouldn't be here in Australia. However not to be of knowledge of India and Africa Plan is disgraceful on the part of a fine upstanding POM like yourself. India in particular being the JEWEL OF THE CROWN. Egads Plan have you even forgotten the significance of such a Colony that India was

Banning St George's Day Parade by the mayor of Bradford as he is a Muslim. Plan is that Political Correctness or just and ASS of a Mayor or both? Perhaps some should just ban the Mayor of Bradford and be done with it Plan

 

[Njaco]

Just so its not exactly a Mutual Admiration Society here, I know almost nothing about UK history on the island. I've mostly been interested in Africa and India when it comes to the UK.

Didn't King Alfred invent cavalry in 1067?

 

[Emac44]

Not likely Njaco by 1067 The Normans had conquered most of England. And King Harold was dead killed at Hastings the previous year.

But there was King Knute trying to hold back the sea. Much like Plan trying to hold back his temper with the Muslim Mayor of Bradford