A
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
KraziKanuK said:The V21 had the same rad as the D-9. The D-13 had the other type.
KraziKanuK said:Well you can go through StH and count the number of Spit XIVs produced, for I am not.
KraziKanuK said:As for you references on Dora production, they are out of date. It was a posted on another board, taken from a German book, pg 438.
Soren said:KraziKanuK said:As for you references on Dora production, they are out of date.
Thats probably because they are from History Channel
RG_Lunatic said:How do you know this. The first Dora's prototypes and I think the first try at production had the segmented ring radiators. They then tried to produce and field these but found they were too expensive to build and imposible to maintain. I doubt the D-13 had the segmented ring radiator, by then they'd given up on it.
956 were produced. How many were accepted, delivered, and deployed before VE day I do not know, but 700-750 seems reasonable.
Page 438 of what book? That someone posted such info on another board out of an unknown book means exactly what?
The problem is that some people think assignment of werknumbers signifies production. It is clear this is not valid. Then their are acual records of units charged for, but this is not valid either. What counts is units actually accepted, delivered, and deployed.
=S=
Lunatic
RG_Lunatic said:Bite me Soren!
So now you think we should take your word over an actual Luftwaffe Ace and a Tiger I crewman? Ha ha ha!
RG_Lunatic said:The P-51 was made to "bounce" the enemy. You're trying to diminsh this by implying that "other than that" the P-51 was inferior is silly. P-51's flew over 500 miles into German held territory and beat the FW's over their own ground. That is the definition of superiority.
As for the 51D's and 47's beating the Luftwaffe you are wrong my friend. The Hitler, Goering, and the Luftwaffe beat the Luftwaffe
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:Well every source that I have found says that 674 Doras were built but something like 13000 A were built and I am not sure of the F or the G varients.
RG as for you post about the "extreme high alltitude" label. What makes you think I labeled it that. I never said that. As for the P-51H and the Ta-152H Im sorry but atleast the 152 saw service and as far as I am concerned with everything I have studdied on it and what pilots have said there was nothing finer in the sky then the 152H and nothing could match it. Unless the 51H saw service against it (which it did not) you can not convince me that it was the best thing ever built and that it would outfly a 152H. As for the 51D's and 47's beating the Luftwaffe you are wrong my friend. The Hitler, Goering, and the Luftwaffe beat the Luftwaffe.
RG_Lunatic said:Who said anything about "cooling problems"? It was just the normal operation of the aircraft. Multiple sources report that both the 190 and the 109 had very short full speed performance limits.
As for the number of Spit XIV's deployed, I can only account for a couple of hundred, so I suspect you are right. However, I still have not seen any source reference for deployment of more than a maximum of about 950 Dora's of all types. "Production" figures don't suffice because this does not account for aircraft destroyed by allied bombing in the factory after having been "completed" or those destroyed in transit. Also, the German's often considered a plane as "produced" when it was still lacking critical components, such as an engine, which was to be installed after delivery. Post-war study of production records also show a fair bit of hanky-panky going on in accounting, especially in the last year of the war.
The most valid measure of quantity is the number of servicable aircraft delivered to squadrons.
One thing is for sure - the Dora's were rare. Most Allied fighter pilots flying in 1944 and 1945 never even saw one. This belies the claim of any 1800 operational Dora's.
=S=
Lunatic
RG_Lunatic said:Read the Soviet Fighter Tactics manual concerning the 190 and 109 cooling problems. I've posted it before, and it's on RING's website (see my post of that source for data). I've seen comments about limited full speed performance from other sources too, I'll try to locate them and post them for you.
No other prop fighter, before or since used annular radiators on a liquid cooled fighter engine. Tank did so because he had no choice, he had to fit the Jumo into his existing 190 design.
As for the 1400-1500 figure... where do you come up with these numbers from? You keep repeating higher numbers and disputing Green's data, but you still give no source.
Udet said:RG_Lunatic:
It gets to the point when one should say to hell with this.
You have a clear and very massive conflict of interest when debating here. Also you are highly influenced by the propaganda of your country.
Udet said:You are blidnfolded then uncapable yourself of seeing the whole photograph.
Udet said:Of course am i trying to diminish the Mustang, placing it where it belongs.
Udet said:A very fine and capable plane for sure. But it had its limitations, none of which appear to be part of your knowledge, RG.
Udet said:Unless facing the Butcher at very high altitude, the Mustang is inferior to the Fw190.
Udet said:A short burst of the Fw190 hitting the P-51 is way more lethal to Mustang, than a Mustang´s short burst hitting the Butcher.
Udet said:Many many Butcher Bird pilots, even rookie pilots, swallowed the Mustangs.
Udet said:It is clear everywhere, survability of the P-51 is a midget by the side of the 190´s.
Udet said:Whethere you like it or not, that is how the USAAF and RAF won the air war: by bouncing the German formations climbing to altitude or trying to land short of fuel after the flown sortie.
Udet said:And even when bounced -numerically surpassed- the German pilots reacted accordingly and still managed to shoot down numbers of bouncers, proving they were not "ill-trained" and that their fighters were in equal terms, if not superior, to their enemy´s.
Udet said:I ve read lots of books, articles and papers and the USAAF pilots gladly state "we bounced..." like hell, apparently forgetting for one moment, that bouncing does not require the skill a dogfight does, and also that bouncing does not put the aircraft capabilities at full test.
If my enemy is of my same height, weight and muscle mass, is easier for me to knock him out if a approach him from the rear with a baseball bat in my hands while he walks than to place myself right in front of him and challenge him.
Bouncing, whether you like it or not. In the end, it is your own business RG.
Udet said:You want the whole cake, the typical anomaly observed on individuals suffering the victor´s drunkness syndrome.
"We had better pilots, better training, better tactics, better engines, better ammo, guns, cannons, gunsights, fueselages, intelligence.." that is a pathology.
You are a piece of a megalomaniac aren´t you?)
Udet said:It also appears you conduct a deliberate avoidance of issues: why do you stick to your vision USAAF pilots did not know of the Doras?
Udet said:The Ta152s never met USAAF fighters? What of the recorded fact of victories at very low altitude over Yaks during the last weeks of the war?
Udet said:Well, many of them should be glad they did not meet them in numbers for many more of them would not have survived the war.