The Guns We Own

[mikewint]

CharlesB, I guess the old revolver carbine has pretty well passed into history. They were very popular in the "old west" and in the military where the replaced both bolt and lever. Eventually the slow reload did them in.
The best known, to me, was Colt's 1855
ans Remington made several models

 

[RabidAlien]

Went out to DFW Gun Range - Training Center and Retail Firearms Store - Dallas, TX today with a friend from church, and my wife. First time shooting a shotgun for our friend J, my wife J, and myself (J's boyfriend, D, brought his pistol-grip 12-gage...I forget the make and model), that's always fun! My wife and I went through a couple boxes of ammo (yeah, yeah....once more bills get paid off, we'll start going through a LOT more ammo, trust me!), and I managed to snag this beauty of a shot (photo and handgun!) with a cell phone camera...probably used up a years' supply of luck getting it, too! Still, its a cool shot, IMHAOIO (in my humble and oft-ignored opinion).

ETA: Mike, I've always loved the looks of those old revolver rifles! They're just frikkin COOL!

 

[GrauGeist]

Pistol-grip shotguns are certainly fun to shoot, I used to have a Remington 870 that I worked into a "Vindicator" model:
Parkerized finish
Factory 18 1/4" police style barrel (2 3/4" chamber)
Tube magazine extension
Pachmeyer grips (both butt and pump)
External stores, reciever mounted
Barrel heat extractor

It was a real (pardon the pun) blast to run some rounds through and it would have been a serious equilizer against home intruders or a door-to-door situation.

And, AWESOME catch on that pic, RA...well done!

 

[RabidAlien]

Yeah, we had a great time shooting it (not that we ran too many shells through it...it wasn't ours, after all). Would have been nice to have a laser dot on it, so that we knew were we were going to be putting the buckshot. After two of my shots went a bit low, I had to comment that not only would the perp NOT be getting up after taking those loads, but he wouldn't be perpetuating the criminal gene-pool any more. After that, I managed to get them somewhere near center-mass. It wasn't a pretty target, by any means...but it was a "stopped" target. LOL

 

[GrauGeist]

I hear ya' on the devestating target coverage!

I had considered at one time, placing a laser on my Vindicator, but I figured it wasn't really nessecary since one round (2 3/4" high-brass #6) would clear a decent sized room. So simply levelling it about hip-height and pointing it in the bad-guy's general direction would accomplish serious coverage of not only thier body, but the floor, ceiling, most walls and about 90% of any other object within thier general vicinity (except those items directly behind aforementioned bad guy's body)...

 

[RabidAlien]

Yep, its a room-sweeper, that's for sure. However, since it would probably be a room filled with my own possessions, I figured the more lead-therapy the perp received, the less the items that I'd paid for would receive. Win-win, in my book!

 

[GrauGeist]

Oohhh...good point, save the stuff from the bad guy, my bad.

Then obviously the 12 Gauge Frangible Slug is the right decision for this situation!

Those 325gr. hollow point slugs will do the trick nicely!

 

[vikingBerserker]

"lead therapy"

Nice RA!

 

[bobbysocks]

here's what you need for those 12 ga shotguns.....a couple thugs coming down the hallway...light'em up...literally!


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwhCygmhbCg


there are a bunch of "interesting" shotgun rounds that are still available today. there was:

the bolo round. a shell that had 2 lead balls with a piec of piano wire between them
flechette rounds. a shell with hundreds of small finishing nail sized darts.
animal control rounds. a small 12 ga explosive grenade
rubber slug, there were 2 versions one with a large rubber sabot and one with several 00 buck size rubber balls
tear gas round, self explanitory as well
smoke round, self explanitory
flare round, 2 versions one had a parachute, the other did not
i dont know how practical any of those would be but i am sure they would be fun to shoot...lol

 

[RabidAlien]

Bolo round sounds devastatingly lethal! Same with Flechette. I'd LOVE to see them in action, though, out on an open range somewhere.

 

[GrauGeist]

There are also 12 Gauge drag-corrected bean-bag rounds. Definately non-lethal unless you nail the douchebag in the throat/eye or perhaps a close range shot to the brisket resulting in cardiac arrest.

I hate to even say this, but the way things are nowdays regarding defense attorneys and the dreaded personal injury attorneys, I wouldn't consider non-lethal force to a home invader or someone jeopardizing my life. I just cannot afford the protracted legal battles that would ensue...

 

[Matt308]

Bolo round sounds devastatingly lethal! Same with Flechette. I'd LOVE to see them in action, though, out on an open range somewhere.

If such a thing is available, it is not above board market. This description is of "pirate" era wherein cannon fodder might have consisted of two large shots connected via wire to destroy ship rigging. Nowadays? BS. I've never seen such unless it is black market or small scale sales.

 

[RabidAlien]

Yeah, I knew about the grape- and chain-shot from the wind-powered naval days. Wasn't quite sure how they'd get a chain small enough to fit in the shells, but strong enough to withstand being fired. Still, the sci-fi geek in me would love to see them come to be!

 

[mikewint]

RA, excellent shot (also no pun)
I'm with Matt, I've never heard of such rounds for a shotgun. The fletchet rounds were common in Arty and I have seen them in action. There are also aerial bomblets than spray the fletchets. I have anti-personel rounds for the .410 that contain 4, .45 cal disks and 18 BB's. The disks are supposed to go essentially straight while the BBs spread. I personally like a 20 gauge auto for home defense. Most times you are shooting across a room 12 - 15ft and even for a 20 that's a tight pattern. I also like #8 shot backed up by #00 buck in following rounds.
Going to post pics soon. Recently bought an SSA 1893 Custer Colt 7.5in complete with the Ainsworth cartouche, not 100% orginal, been reworked in the past so it s fully shootable and just recently a 1939 German Army Luger also almost orginal. It has 2 unmatched serial numbers and is also a great shooter. If it could only talk

 

[bobbysocks]

i never claimed they were available at walmart...just that if you want them...you can get them. one of my ammo suppliers had them but since i wasnt into shotguns i never stocked any. but you can go shopping for all those and more here...

Specialized Shotshell Ammunition

mike back in the late 80s early 90s they found a crap load of walther P 38 and luger parts in belgium. some of the guns were partial and some were completely broken down. they ( importer ) put them together with mixed parts so the serial numbers didnt match. they went for about 1/2 the price of the matching but shot just as well. who really care if the numbers all match unless you are a die hard collector...

 

[GrauGeist]

By the way, Matt...the bolo round, flechette and a broad variety of rounds for 12 gauge and other gauges are currently available from an ammunition dealer I have dealt with several times (none of this stuff, though...I was after plain old 9mm ammo)...

Here's a partial list from thier catalogue:

12 GAUGE WHISTLE
THESE CARTRIDGES LIFT A PROJECTILE THAT EMITS AN EAR-PIERCING SCREAM TO AN AVERAGE ALTITUDE OF 600 FEET. THESE CARTRIDGES ARE DESIGNED TO WARD OFF PREDATORS SUCH AS DEER, FOX AND DOGS ON PROTECTED PROPERTY/FARM LANDS OR NURSERIES. WARNING: FOR WILDLIFE AND AGRICULTURAL USE ONLY. NOT TO BE USED AS FIREWORKS. CHECK YOUR GUN BARREL FOR OBSTRUCTIONS AFTER EACH SHOT.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE CUBIC SHOT
THESE SHELLS CONTAIN PELLETS EXTRUDED AND CUT INTO SMALL UNIFORM CUBES, RESULTING IN A FAST OPENING LETHAL PATTERN, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME REDUCING THE POSSIBILITY OF RICOCHETS. THESE SHELLS ARE PARTICULARLY EFFECTIVE IN HEAVY COVER ON GAME TARGETS SUCH AS GROUSE, SWAMP RATS, ETC. THE SHOTSHELL CONTAINS 363 CUBES WITHIN A HIGH BRASS CASING WITH A MUZZLE VELOCITY OF 1307 FPS. AERODYNAMICALLY, IT CONVERTS YOUR "FULL CHOKE" BARREL INTO AN "IMPROVED CYLINDER" ONE. THE PHOTOGRAPH BELOW SHOWS A TYPICAL CHANGE ON AN NRA TARGET. NOW AVAILABLE IN BOTH 16 GAUGE (########) AND 20 GAUGE (########). DETAILS FOR THESE ARE LOCATED IN THE APPROPRIATE SECTIONS OF THIS CATALOG. USE ONLY IN MODERN ARMS IN GOOD CONDITION. DO NOT USE IN DAMASCUS TWIST BARRELS. MADE IN FRANCE.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE STINGER
THIS ROUND CONTAINS 16-00 BUCK BALLS MADE OF ZYTEL. THIS ROUND IS IDEAL NOT ONLY FOR HOME DEFENSE, BUT IDEAL FOR RIOT CONTROL IN TIGHT QUARTERS WITHOUT THE USE OF LETHAL FORCE.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE MAIDEN'S REVENGE
THIS IS AN IDEAL CARTRIDGE FOR STOPPING AN INTRUDER IN THEIR TRACKS WITHOUT EXCESSIVE WALL PENETRATION AND RICOCHET. THE HOLLOW STEEL BALLS MAKE THIS ROUND VERY LIGHT IN RECOIL SO THAT ANY FAMILY MEMBER CAN HANDLE ITS USE.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE HEAVY DUTY BEAN BAG
THIS ROUND CONTAINS A MATERIAL THAT WEIGHS OUT AT (1.3 OZS.) IN A RUPTURE-PROOF BAG. IDEAL FOR LONG RANGE BODY HITS OF A FLEEING FELON, WITH LITTLE CHANCE AGAINST A LETHAL HIT. RECOMMENDED FOR 25 YARDS MINIMUM STRIKING RANGE.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE PEPPER GAS
THIS CARTRIDGE PRODUCES A CONE SHAPED BLAST OF OC POWDER APPROXIMATELY 8 FEET IN DIAMETER AT 25 FEET. THIS CARTRIDGE USES THE SAME POWDER AS THE ISRAELI RIOT CONTROL GRENADES. IDEALLY SUITED FOR USE IN THE HV-5 ALARM SYSTEM DESCRIBED IN THIS CATALOG OR IN ANY SHOTGUN. RECOMMENDED FOR OUTDOOR USE AS THE POWDER CAN BECOME IMBEDDED IN CARPET AND FURNITURE. ITS PRACTICAL USE WOULD BE FOR RIOT CONTROL WHERE LESS THAN LETHAL FORCE IS NECESSARY. OVERALL CARTRIDGE LENGTH IS 2-3/4".
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE RUBBER SLUG
THIS 2-3/4" CARTRIDGE IS LOADED WITH A ROCKET SHAPED RUBBER PROJECTILE THAT WEIGHS 80 GRAINS (0.18 OUNCE). AT THE MUZZLE THIS PROJECTILE REACHES A VELOCITY OF ABOUT 700-750 FEET PER SECOND THAT DELIVERS A NON-LETHAL KNOCK-DOWN FORCE THAT CAN BE USED IN THE HOME OR ON THE STREETS UP TO AROUND 35-40 YARDS. THIS PROJECTILE SHOULD NEVER BE USED FOR HEAD SHOTS THAT CAN BE FATAL.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE DISINTEGRATOR
THIS ROUND IS SUPER EFFECTIVE FOR BLOWING OUT DOOR LOCKS, DOOR HINGES AND DEAD BOLTS. THESE SPECIAL CARTRIDGES HAVE A CHARGE OF COMPRESSED POWDERED METAL THAT IS VERY DENSE AND STRIKES THE TARGET WITH A GREAT DEAL OF FORCE. THESE INSTANTLY TURN BACK INTO DUST. THUS, THE DOOR AND LOCK IS BLOWN OFF, AND PENETRATION IS VIRTUALLY REDUCED TO ZERO! MINIMUM RANGE IS 15 FEET. SOME PARTIAL BLOWBACK. WEAR PROTECTIVE EYE WEAR.
######## - PKG 0F 3

12 GAUGE DOOR BREACHING ROUND
THIS ROUND IS MIXED WITH LEAD/CLAY COMPOSITE THAT IS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR BREACHING A DOOR OR LOCK MECHANISM. VERY EFFECTIVE ON HEAVY DOORS AND LOCK MECHANISMS THAT ORDINARY BREACHING ROUNDS MAY NOT UNDO.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE TERMINATOR
THIS ROUND CONTAINS A HOLLOW CORE SLUG WHICH HAS DOZENS OF TINY LEAD PELLETS THAT SPREAD DRAMATICALLY AS THE CORE EXPANDS TO 1-1/2" ON IMPACT. THE INITIAL SHOCK CAUSED BY THE CORE IS FURTHER ENHANCED BY THE TINY SHOT CREATING MASSIVE TISSUE DAMAGE.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE TRACER SHOT
THESE TRACER ROUNDS SHOW THE EXACT PATH TAKEN BY THE SHOT STAYING NEAR THE CENTER OF THE PATTERN. THEY ENABLE THE SHOOTER TO PINPOINT ANY SIGHTING ERRORS. THE TRACE CAN BE SEEN EVEN IN BRIGHT SUNLIGHT, MAKING IT IDEAL FOR CLAY TARGETS, SPORTS, LAW ENFORCEMENT OR MILITARY TRAINING. WARNING: DO NOT FIRE INDOORS OR WHERE DRY GRASS OR FOLIAGE MAY BURN. DO NOT USE NEAR FLAMMABLES. CAUTION MUST BE EXERCISED WHEN FIRING THESE ROUNDS TO PREVENT ACCIDENTAL BRUSH FIRES. IT IS RECOMMENDED THAT THEY BE USED AT AN APPROVED FIRING RANGE. CHECK YOUR STATE LAWS CONCERNING LAWFUL FIRING OF THIS AMMUNITION. MADE IN ITALY.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE SALT ROUND
THIS ROUND CONTAINS ROCK SALT THAT CAN BE USED AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO LESS THAN LETHAL FORCE. DUE TO THE LIGHT WEIGHT OF THE SHOT MATERIAL, IT SHOULD BE USED AT DISTANCES OF NOT LESS THAN 20 YARDS OR MORE THAN 50 YARDS FROM YOUR TARGET.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE FIREBALL
FIREBALL PRODUCES AN ENORMOUS WALL OF FIRE AND SPARKS FOR 250+ FEET! THE INCENDIARY METAL CONTAINED INSIDE BURNS AT OVER 3000 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT WHEN FIRED, SHOWERING YOUR TARGET IN A MOMENTARY WALL OF FIRE. HAS BEEN USED BY U.S. FORESTRY TO START BACKFIRES AND POLICE SWAT TEAMS FOR DIVERSIONARY TACTICS. WARNING: EXTREME FIRE HAZARD!!! (COMPARES TO DRAGON'S BREATH). CAUTION MUST BE EXERCISED WHEN FIRING THESE ROUNDS TO PREVENT ACCIDENTAL BRUSH FIRES. IT IS RECOMMENDED THAT THEY BE USED AT AN APPROVED FIRING RANGE. CHECK YOUR STATE LAWS CONCERNING LAWFUL FIRING OF THIS AMMUNITION.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE ROAD BLOCKER
THIS CARTRIDGE CONTAINS A HARDENED PROJECTILE THAT WILL IMMOBILIZE A FLEEING VEHICLE. WILL PUNCTURE TIRES AND CRITICAL PORTIONS OF AN ENGINE BLOCK. MANY USES BY LAW ENFORCEMENT ESPECIALLY AT ROAD BLOCKS.
######## - PKG. OF 3

12 GAUGE HIGH ALTITUDE RED FLARE
THESE FLARES WILL RISE TO AN ALTITUDE OF WELL OVER 300 FEET WHEN FIRED AT A 70 DEGREE ANGLE, IN WHICH A SINGLE STAR IS RELEASED AND WILL BURN FOR APPROXIMATELY SIX TO SEVEN SECONDS. THESE ARE IDEAL FOR CAMPERS IN THE WOODS OR ON BOATS TO SIGNAL FOR ASSISTANCE. CAUTION: FIRE HAZARD.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE COMET FLARE, GOLD
THESE FLARES ARE ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE THE HV SERIES IN RED, GREEN AND WHITE FLARES AS DESCRIBED IN OUR CATALOG. THE MAJOR DIFFERENCE IS THAT THEY PRODUCE A COLORFUL GOLD SPRAY OF SPARKS AT AN ALTITUDE OF AROUND 350 FEET IN THE AIR. IDEALLY SUITED FOR PRACTICE IN YOUR FLARE PISTOLS USING THE ADAPTERS THAT WE SUPPLY AND TO AVOID THE POSSIBILITY OF A MISTAKE IN SHOOTING A RED, GREEN OR WHITE FLARE AS AN EMERGENCY SIGNAL.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE FLECHETTE
A FLECHETTE IS A 1 INCH DART SHAPED PROJECTILE FOR USE IN TAKING OUT SNIPERS HIDING IN THICK BRUSH OR TREES. DUE TO THE PENETRATION OF THESE PROJECTILES, TREE LIMBS AND BRUSH WILL NOT DISPERSE THE DARTS AS READILY AS ROUND SHOT. THEY WILL GIVE AN ALL COVERING PATTERN WITHIN TREES OR BRUSH. NOT INTENDED FOR HUNTING. THESE WERE UTILIZED DURING THE VIET-NAM ERA, OFTEN REFERRED TO AS THE "BEEHIVE" ROUND.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE PAYLOAD SLUG
THIS IS A FINNED STABILIZED SLUG WITH A DEEP HOLLOW CAVITY FOR LOADING COMBUSTIBLE MATERIAL. THE ENTRANCE HOLE IN THE PROJECTILE EASILY ACCOMMODATES THE INSERTION OF A #209 SHOTGUN PRIMER AS AN INITIATOR.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE BOLO ROUNDS
THIS ROUND IS LOADED WITH TWO LEAD BALLS TIED TOGETHER WITH A 5 INCH FLEXIBLE STEEL WIRE. BEST USED FOR LONG-RANGE DEFENSE.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE KURTZ TACTICAL SHOTSHELL (1.8" O.L.)
THIS ROUND CONSISTS OF 9-00 PROJECTILES VERY SIMILAR TO OUR 12 GA. RHODESIAN (########). WITH AN OVERALL LENGTH OF 1.8 INCHES, THIS WILL ALLOW MORE ROUNDS TO FIT INTO THE MAGAZINE. THE AVERAGE VELOCITY OF 1300 FPS IS STANDARD.
######## - PKG OF 3 TEMP OUT OF STOCK

12 GAUGE SHREDDER
THIS ROUND IS LOADED WITH SHARP PROJECTILES AND THEN BUFFERED WITH #12 LEAD SHOT. BEST APPLICATION IS FOR HOME DEFENSE USE.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GA. CHAIN REACTION
THIS ROUND IS LOADED WITH TWO .58 CALIBER LEAD MUSKET BALLS,
CONNECTED BY A 6" BRAIDED STEEL CABLE WEIGHING 1.25 OUNCES.
SIMILAR TO OUR ######## IN THE 20 GAUGE VERSION AND IDEAL FOR USE IN
HEAVY BRUSH AGAINST A HIDDEN ADVERSARY.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE RHODESIAN JUNGLE
THIS ROUND CONTAINS 6-00 BUCK PELLETS AND IS THEN BACK FILLED WITH #4 SHOT. THE PRIMARY USE OF THIS ROUND IS TO PENETRATE THROUGH HEAVY FOLIAGE AND TO PROVIDE SUPERIOR KNOCK-DOWN POWER. IT WAS USED BY THE RHODESIAN COMBAT FORCES IN SOUTH AFRICA TO CLEAR HEAVY BRUSH AND TO CLEAR THE WAY FOR THE LETHAL BUCK PELLETS TO HAVE A PROFOUND EFFECT ON THE ENEMY. IT IS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE FLECHETTE ROUNDS THAT WERE UTILIZED IN VIET-NAM.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE MINI-MISSLE
THE LEAD SLUG HAS A SWAGED STEEL CORE IN THE CENTER OF THE PROJECTILE WHICH ALLOWS A HIGHER VELOCITY. THE CORE ACTS MUCH LIKE A SHAPED CHARGE ALLOWING DEEP PENETRATION INTO HARD OBJECTS INCLUDING MOST METALS.
######## - PKG OF 3

12 GAUGE INCENDIARY
THE 12 GAUGE INCENDIARY ROUND CONTAINS A CHEMICAL MIXTURE MUCH LIKE THAT FOUND IN METALLIC CARTRIDGES. WHEN THE PROJECTILE STRIKES AN OBJECT, THE COMPOUND PRODUCES A BRILLIANT FLASH OF LIGHT AT A TEMPERATURE IN EXCESS OF 3,000 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT, CAPABLE OF IGNITING FLAMMABLE MATERIALS. IT IS RECOMMENDED THAT THESE ROUNDS BE FIRED AT AN APPROVED FIRING RANGE TO PREVENT ACCIDENTAL BRUSH FIRES. CHECK YOUR STATE LAWS CONCERNING LAWFUL FIRING OF THIS AMMUNITION.
######## - PKG OF 3

 

[Matt308]

However, if you ever shot somebody with one of these rounds, in a legal situation or not, I guarantee that you would go directly to jail.

 

[bobbysocks]

if i "needed" to shot someone.....going to jail would be the last thing on my mind. hitting the target would be #1... lol

 

[GrauGeist]

Just about 99% of those loads look like a hoot to fool around with...but not in any of my smoothbores...lmao

I'll use someone else's

 

[Matt308]

if i "needed" to shot someone.....going to jail would be the last thing on my mind. hitting the target would be #1... lol

That's a nice statement from someone not having shot someone. But if you were to talk with firearm lawyers and firearm special witnesses, hey would tell you different everyday of the week. It's an easy decision when you make a snap judgement on a moments notice to load your firearm. It is quite another when you have made a concientious decision to load yourself with "publicly perceived" extreme loads.

Look, I'm with you, but reality is that legal proceedings even view our 2nd amendment rights negatively when we are reloaders that work up high power +P or +P+ loadings for personal defense. Just look in the recent past wherein Winchester Black Talon's were vilified by victim rights advocates and certain medical surgeons.

Be careful gents. Its no different than putting a sign on your front door that says "This house protected by Smith and Wesson". You shoot somebody and they will use that against you.