The Ta-152.... The Best High Altitude Fighter?????

[Civettone]

Soren, most people can't tell the Fw 190D and Ta 152 apart if not for the wings. For your average pilot the Ta 152H would look like a Dora with long wings. In any case, they didn't report any aircraft which looked like this.

Kris

 

[lesofprimus]

The Tank does not have the cowl mounted guns...

 

[lesofprimus]

On 2 March 1945, II/JG 301 and its 12 Ta 152H-0's and 1's were flying as the fighter escort of the Heavy Gruppe at 8,000 meters, when they were attacked by Bf 109G-10's of IV/JG 301, wearing the same yellow and red fuselage band....

The Tank Staffel was ordered to "climb up and stay with the formation", but still the 109s pursued and attacked the new 152H's...

The 152H's easily disengaged from the 109s without loss....

One thing this showed was that the Ta 152H could climb away from the fighters of the other Gruppen, showing the superiority of the Tank...

 

[Erich]

and that the former bomber pilots flying as fighter pilots in IV./JG 301 couldn't tell what was a German fighter or no.

side note IV./JG 301 flew maybe 2-3 missions and were almost totally wiped out

 

[lesofprimus]

Yea, the number of former bomber pilots throughout the Luftwaffe in 1945 was nothing more than lambs for the slaughter...

 

[Udet]

side note IV./JG 301 flew maybe 2-3 missions and were almost totally wiped out

Erich, how come?

 

[Erich]

slaughtered in action by P-51's. Also IV./JG 300 never amounted to much either and were in a similar condition, too few missions flown by in-experienced fighter pilots and overwhelmed and shot to pieces.

IV./JG 301 was made up from personell of III./KG Hindenburg and also crews of II./JG 77

 

[lesofprimus]

The majority of pilots that of this Jagdgruppe came from the disbanded III/KG 77 and flew the He 177.... On 2 Mar 1945, it was their very first mission against American fighters and bombers...

IV/JG 301 (13, 14, 15 Staffel) lost the following KIA:
Patek
Rummell
Heilberger
Zietlow
Appel
Ruh
Keil
Welsch
8 dead
4 wounded
13 aircraft lost

These heavy losses suffered began a disbandment that finalized in April... The remaining pilots were distributed throughout the other 3 Gruppen...

On 2 Apr 1945, Easter, Redlein and Bunk were killed while stafing...

 

[Soren]

Soren, most people can't tell the Fw 190D and Ta 152 apart if not for the wings. For your average pilot the Ta 152H would look like a Dora with long wings. In any case, they didn't report any aircraft which looked like this.

Kris

Civettone please take a look at just the side profile of the two fighters - the Ta-152 is longer, and from above it doesn't look like a Dora.

 

[lesofprimus]

Profile shots...

 

[Civettone]

Soren, you see the difference. I see the difference. But most people won't. And especially not when it's passing by at high speed.
American pilots will clearly recognize it as a Fw 190D with longer wings. The resemblence is bigger than the differences.

Kris

 

[Erich]

well to tell the truth US P-51 pilots just called the Dora a long nosed Fw 190. Nearly all had never even seen a Ta 152 as only 1 P-51 was confirmed shot down in combat with a Ta of Stab./JG 301

Les the combat that Willi took place with the Tempest he was flying white 1 from what I understand, now I am going to have to look further on this

 

[HealzDevo]

Well I know there is a difference, but they do look very similar. I mean in deadly combat you are hardly going to say, "Hang on, that isn't quite a Dora" because you aren't going to be looking or concentrating on that part of it. You are going to be more concerned with "Here's an enemy lets shoot him down before he shoots us." If you get my drift, this was kill or be killed between the Luftwaffe and the USAAF.

 

[davparlr]

Well I know there is a difference, but they do look very similar. I mean in deadly combat you are hardly going to say, "Hang on, that isn't quite a Dora" because you aren't going to be looking or concentrating on that part of it. You are going to be more concerned with "Here's an enemy lets shoot him down before he shoots us." If you get my drift, this was kill or be killed between the Luftwaffe and the USAAF.

I agree. They look a lot alike from the side. I don't think an Allied pilot would know the difference from that angle.

 

[Lucky13]

If they couldn't tell the difference by sight of a Ta-152, maybe they could by the aircrafts maneuverability etc... The D's had been around for a while and they had been fighting them. So if they ran into a Ta and started to tangle with it mybe they'd think "hang on a minute, this one's behaving different..."
Or am I wrong?

 

[Civettone]

Don't think so Lucky. Experienced pilots know that an aircraft is only as good as the pilot flying it. If a pilot is suddenly surprised to see the same type of Bf 109 he shot down just yesterday suddenly outmanoeuvring him, he'll say "damn, that Gerry's good".

Kris

 

[Erich]

Gentlemen : let's remember that most 8th/9th AF fighter pilot's never ran up against a Dora 9 and would have no idea at all if they encountered a Dora or a Ta in combat at 25,000 ft plus. As I posted in US combat reports the Dora was considered a long nose Fw

 

[lesofprimus]

Erich is correct...

 

[Soren]

Civettone the chances of you clearly seeing the side profile of an enemy fighter during WW2 was very slim - even in a head-on encounter with both a/c passing right by each other the sheer speed of the conversion alone would ruin any chance of recognition. What you are most likely going to see in combat is the top, bottom, back and rear profile, and mostly at an angle, and in this case the Ta-152H-1 and Dora-9 are pretty different - more than enough for the Ta-152H not to be considered a Dora.

In RL there is a difference:

 

[mkloby]

Soren - I think that it'd be VERY difficult to tell the two apart in the air. When I'm flying around, it's difficult to ID exact models until close unless you have MAJOR distinguishing features. Now, take similar looking birds, and the fact that a dogfight is about to ensue... they're not tooling about at 100 knots, and the fact that once spotted ACM is going to begin. I'd sure as hell ID it as a Dora...