Tiger Attack!

[CharlesBronson]

Checking the book "Tiger 1 heavy tank 1942-1945" of Jentz-Doyle I found interesting data about the battle of KursK.

There was 148 Tigers I available on that time in the Eastern Front, 85 % ready to combat.

Facing it there was about 3400 russian tank ( including 270 Kv-1 and 35 Churchill Mk-III)

The sPz.Abt 503 had an excelent performance in the attack to the russian bulge. Betwenn 1 of July 1943 and 2 September 1943 the Heavy Tank Batallion claimed as destroyed 501 enemy tanks (mostly T-34 but also small cuantities of Valentine, Churchill, and KV-1s) 388 pak and Flak guns, 79 artillery pieces and 7 aircraft...

In turn this group suffer 18 Tiger knocked out wich only 7 became total losses.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

You can see why the later T34's were called 'Mickey Maus' can't you? (above picture - turret hatches)


PlanD:

Those photos you use are Nazi propaganda pics, as bad as the Soviets?

The IS2 is not to be belittled. The IS2's mentioned here are the earlier versions and the retro-fitted IS1's which had crap armour quality/design, crews and guns compared to the mainstream IS2(M).

Also a T34 destroyed 3 KT's in 3 minutes!! 8)

The Panther was excellent though, especially the AusF and Late G's.

The early D's were crappily designed/built though, as were a lot of KingTigers.

If my memory serves me correctly the Soviets attacked again in the same area some time later and the Panther wasn't there anymore - ran out of ammo? I think it's likely.

If I was the Panther commander I'd scarper too, as the Soviets were prone to sending in the SU-100's or similar, or maybe even IL-2's or Katyushka's against such 'nuisances'.

I doubt the ammo ran out - the Panther had a huge ammo load, a huge advantage over the IS2. 8)

What a surprise for them bolsheviks to know there were only some 3 dozens of Tigers in the whole Kursk salient deployed, and in fact, most of them went through the battle chewing T-34 ass.

'Them bolsheviks' called all Panzers Tigers! Certainly the Panther was usually called the Tiger, this was a case of mistaken identity.

I reckon the Ferds would also have been confused for Tigers. Of cause later all StuG's were called Ferdinands by the Soviets:

Soviet soldiers painted the name TIGER on the front armor plate and first three letters TIG (in Russian) are visible. In 1943/44, to the ordinary Soviet troops all German Panzers were known as "Tigers" and all assault guns as "Ferdinands", while all German soldiers as "Fritz" or "Gans".
Photo and information provided by Dmitry Pyatakhin.

Taken from:

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm#panther

The T34, SU122, SU85 and SU152 were all capable of beating a Tiger and proved this at Kursk.

Later, the Soviets found their 76mm could only penetrate the Tigers flanks at < 200m!!

 

[plan_D]

Nazi propaganda? They don't have to lie about a Tiger knocking out T-34s and BT-7Ms, schwarz. No they're not. And the Tiger is not to be belittled, only an idiot would try and do so ...but you try pretty hard.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

Oh yes it was formidable, but Tiger Phobia among the Allies along with German pride makes it seem better than it was with Westerners.

Still a great tank and yes, very capable of taking out T34's and BTM's. 8)

Still, it had quite a few weaknesses, but I disagree with some (Western) experts that say the PzIV was better. I remember you actually helped me on that PD, cheers.

 

[CharlesBronson]

No comments.

 

[schwarzpanzer]

I'd have the one on the right.

The Sherman/76 wasn't actually bad though, at least it was dependable and numerous.

 

[mosquitoman]

I'd take the Firefly over the Sherman/76

 

[m kenny]

From 12th January - 31st March 1943, 1st Company (theoretically seven Tigers and eight Pz.Kpfw III) s.Pz-Abt 502 operating near Leningrad with Army Group North destroyed one-hundred and sixty enemy tanks with a loss of six Tiger tanks. A kill:loss of 26.7:1. Only three of those lost were to enemy action. Two became stuck and were destroyed by their crew. One fell to mechanical failure and was unrecoverable.

Not so widely known is that kill claims by German Units in the East were officially downgraded by 33-50% before being collated for intelligence purposes. That is the High Command knew they were grossly inflated and tried to bring some reality to the subject. Kill claims are exactly what they say-CLAIMS.

s.Pz-Abt 501 operated in Tunisia. While there it achieved sixty-two percent operational rate of it's Tigers. It arrived before it's support platoons and had to go into combat without any maintenance teams. Yet s.Pz-Abt.501 managed to destroy a number exceeding one-hundred and fifty enemy tanks, of which all were destroyed by the Tigers of the battalion. They lost eleven while in Tunisia which was a kill:loss of 13.6:1. Of those eleven lost, three were to direct enemy action. The rest either broke down or were immobilised in a minefield and could not be recovered.

s.Pz-Abt 504 also operated in Tunisia. While there it achieved a fifty percent operational rate of it's Tigers. From 12 March - 12 May 1943 the battalion destroyed over one-hundred and fifty enemy tanks for a loss of eight Tigers. That's a kill:loss of 18.8. Of all those lost only two were lost to enemy action. That means that the kill:loss due to direct enemy action was an astounding 75:1! The battalion destroyed its remaining Tigers before the Afrika Korps capitulated meaning that a total kill:loss for the Wehrmacht was actually 6.8:1

.

What a coincidence 150 kills for both Units! 300 Allied tanks destroyed by Tigers so it would seem the Pz IIIs , IV's, A/T guns, mines or Infantry weapons got a couple between them-even though combined these outnumbered Tigers by a factor of 20+. Willbeck has a lot to answer for!

The schwere Panzer Abteilungs were created to concentrate the deadly Tiger tank. They were envisaged crushing the enemy lines and destroying their artillery, providing a breakthrough and free roam for the lighter panzers. The employment also included the complete destruction of the enemy tank forces, without destroying the enemy armour a breakthrough will never be achieved. The Western Allies and Red Army were well known not to face the Tiger head-on if at all during these early years of it's introduction. In the Western Desert the Allied armour would simply move away from the Tigers and lay minefields infront of the retreat to trap and immobilise the Tigers.

In Normandy (where we can check German kill claims) it is noticable that there are no double score claims for the Tigers. In fact the Tiger had very little impact in Normandy and was simply flattened in the Allied Advance. The TII made its debut in Normandy and was never even noticed. On 18/7/44 several were destroyed, one even by a Sherman!
The majority of Tigers produced were destroyed in the East and Russian armour books are jam packed with photos of the blackened hulls of countless Tigers.

 

[Soren]

*Yawn !*

I'd really like to see a reliable source M_kenny.

 

[m kenny]

*Yawn !*

I'd really like to see a reliable source M_kenny.

zzzzzzzzzzzz............what.......whats that.........oh yeah, you want a 'source'. A source for anything in particular?
What is it you dispute? The 33-50% reduction?

Try Zetterling's 13th post down on this page.
Effectiveness of Tactical Air In ETO 44-45 - The Dupuy Institute Forum
As he is a published author I presume his word has more weight than mine.

a source that the 300+ kills by Tigers in Tunisia is bull?

Give me a credible source for specific claims (i.e. 40 Tanks of 48th RTR on Xth March) and I will respond.

 

[Erich]

Greetings Michael

top two Königstigers, abandoned due to lack of fuel and then hammered at close proximity by the opposites armor. I've seen these pics back in the early 70's.

Well I do beleive that there was to much overclaiming by Afrika korp and their sources with the "new" Tiger 1. there were too many physical problems with the mount, engines and air cleaner system, andnyes I am well aware of the tropical filters supplied but eventually upon following the non-existant roads were clogged unmerciously by the driving sands. In my opinion the Tiger 1 and the nroth Afrikan desert spelled the death nell of the heavy beast.

Accounting for it's success in Normandy and on the ost front ~ Tiger 1 and later the Königstiger it must be remembered that individual action crew log books were lost, stolen or just plain vapourized on the field of battle. Have always wondered how mysteriously all of a sudden the units diaries just by chance came of age and books have been written in full fold. obviously there were some pretty amazing tales from both sides of the line, but also to Wehrmacht/W-SS/Soviet tank forces propaganda did play a huge moral booster for both the individual's units as well as for the families back home

 

[Erich]

Michael just read Zetterlings post on the Luftwaffe effectiveness. Can hardly agree with him but are we looking to early war only and to what, the Panzerjagern or bombers or fighters with 500 lb boms I wonder ? Simply put even with specific panzerjagern staffeln to destroy tanks there just were not that many kills. I for one doubt seriously Rudels calim of 500 tanks to his credit, more like 200 if that as the second runner up is so far behind Rudel it isn't even funny.

lets see now SG 9 with the Hs 129 claimed about 150 tanks in their existance if my sources are correct.
SG 2, 3 and 77 all three of the Geschwaders had 1 Panzerstaffel equipped with the Ju 87G-1 and some G-2's. when you think even if it is a daily missions and sometimes up to 3-4, what can 15 Ju 87's of each staffel really perform, yes hundreds of tanks scored over time, but thousands ? some on the forum members are going to freak in my answer(s) but guys really think about this. . . . .

On the other hand, lost are the records of the Fw 190F-8, Panzerblitz rocket units. The BA/MA that Nick mentions does not hold the records of at least 25 panzerstaffels that used the equipment that I mention, we can only take the words from surviving pilots that they indeed smashed many a Soviet tank. my personal feelings including JG 7 equipped with altered R4M's for the Me 262's is that they blew Soviet transport right off the roads, tanks on the other hand were hard to pop......

 

[Joe2]

From what I can remember when I went to Bovingdon, that particular Tiget was hit in the gap joining the turret and hull- welding the 2 together which led to the Tiger's crew thinking that it was disabled and ran away

Absolutly correcto-mundo

 

[Joe2]

Also another tale from Bovingdon, a cromwell crew sighted a king tiger and, knowing their puny 75mm gun could not defeat it, drove straight into the panzer (i cant remember what happend next )

Also on the subject of ramming; during the libaration of Paris in 1944,a French sherman Rammed a panther, and the crew got out, drew their pistols and boarded the Panther!! unfortunatly the Frenchies where killed by MG fire soon afterwords.

 

[m kenny]

Also another tale from Bovingdon, a cromwell crew sighted a king tiger and, knowing their puny 75mm gun could not defeat it, drove straight into the panzer (i cant remember what happend next )

I think you confuse the incident where a Sherman rammed a TII on 18/7/44 during operation Goodwood

 

[redcoat]

Do you have the full story behind the photo

Thanks

 

[m kenny]

Axis History Forum :: View topic - Sherman ramming a KingTiger in Normandy...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Great pics there, and interesting story.

 

[CharlesBronson]

That is a nice pic of a Tiger attack...or better said the seconds after attacking a T-34.

 

[delcyros]

I am particularely interested in the last of the 4 pics above.
If I am not wrong, it shows a clear penetration of the front of an early Henschel turret of a T II. Have calculated some months ago that this is a weak spot in the armour design and penetrations might be possible under certain circumstances from reasonable close distances. I feel confirmed by this picture.