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Thanks Renrich, but if your refering to my comments about the Midway class being laid down as an open hanger carrier, I was refering to the choice being made after Midway to not go to the armored box hanger on the newer vessels. I agree about the force multiplier of more sorties faster.CV5 was not a Midway class carrier. Those came later. The Yorktown class were the pick of the litter, at that time, particularly in the PTO. The British carriers were not well fitted for the Pacific and they needed armored flight decks because they had no fighters that could defend them until they got them from the US, thanks to the RAF. The Japanese carriers were not designed as well as the Yorktown class as far as getting strikes into the air. That acted as a force multiplier for the Yorktown class.
This is a little missleading. I do not disagree with you when you say that going from two hanger deck (Ark Royal) to one (Illustrious) was a mistake, but they did get a lot right Heavy AA guns, Multiple directors, a significant number of Light AA guns, increased protection of the hanger area.The Yorktown could not be refitted for obvious reasons but the Enterprise by wars end was fitted with 8-5 3/8's guns, 40-40mm Bofors, and 50- 20mm Orlikon's as her hanger defense. The Bofors are arguably the best AA of the war for ship protection.
Again I don't dispute your numbers but for AA defence the Illustrious had a much heavier AA defence when they came into service and matched the Yorktown at the end of the war. Even the pre war Ark Royal carried 46 x 2pd (6x8) and 32 x HMG
The class varied quite a lot as they tended to be armed with what was available at the time
They all carried 16 x 4.5 with 4 directors
At war end the LAA varied
Illustrious 40 x 2pd (5x8), 3 x 40 (3x1), 52 x 20mm
Victorious 40 x 2pd (5x8), 21 x 40 (2x4, 2x2, 9x1), 45 x 20mm
Formidable 48 x 2pd (6x8), 12 x 40 (12x1), 34 x 20mm
These were a pretty fair match for the weapons carried on the Enterprise.
The difference was that the Illustrious didn't need alterations to cater for the additional topweight.
On the topic of tactics I totally agree that British hadn't grasped the concept of a fleet naval air action in the same way as the IJN or the USN, but it wasn't the fault of the ships.
This is a little missleading. I do not disagree with you when you say that going from two hanger deck (Ark Royal) to one (Illustrious) was a mistake, but they did get a lot right Heavy AA guns, Multiple directors, a significant number of Light AA guns, increased protection of the hanger area.The Yorktown could not be refitted for obvious reasons but the Enterprise by wars end was fitted with 8-5 3/8's guns, 40-40mm Bofors, and 50- 20mm Orlikon's as her hanger defense. The Bofors are arguably the best AA of the war for ship protection.
Again I don't dispute your numbers but for AA defence the Illustrious had a much heavier AA defence when they came into service and matched the Yorktown at the end of the war. Even the pre war Ark Royal carried 46 x 2pd (6x 8 ) and 32 x HMG
The class varied quite a lot as they tended to be armed with what was available at the time
They all carried 16 x 4.5 with 4 directors
At war end the LAA varied
Illustrious 40 x 2pd (5x 8 ), 3 x 40 (3x1), 52 x 20mm
Victorious 40 x 2pd (5x 8 ), 21 x 40 (2x4, 2x2, 9x1), 45 x 20mm
Formidable 48 x 2pd (6x 8 ), 12 x 40 (12x1), 34 x 20mm
These were a pretty fair match for the weapons carried on the Enterprise.
The difference was that the Illustrious didn't need alterations to cater for the additional topweight.
On the topic of tactics I totally agree that British hadn't grasped the concept of a fleet naval air action in the same way as the IJN or the USN, but it wasn't the fault of the ships.
.... The Bofors are arguably the best AA of the war for ship protection.
Whilst the Yorktown had a theoretical total of 90 aircraft, her operational maximum was in fact closer to 72. The Soryu had a theoretical maximum of 72, but an operational maximum of 63 aircraft.
Contrary to either the Japanese or the US, the Illustrious had a theoretical maximum of only 40, and this was the number she fought most of the war with. However, in 1944, it was found that by maintaining a permanent deck park, she could operate up to 52. This was the CAG that the Illustrious class carried into the final battles in the Pacific
So in the end, the operational maximums of the three classes are: Yorktown 72, Soryu 63, and Illustrious 52.
In terms of defensive capability there is no comparison. The Illustrious class, and the light fleet carriers that followed them and adopted the same closed hangar system, were far superior to anything the US possessed, including the Essex classes until long after the war. There were reasons why most post war minor navies went for British Carriers and US aircraft after in their postwar navies
Had Soryu survived the Midway debacle, her defensive capabilities would have been significantly improved as were all the Japanese carriers. though never as well protected as either the US or the british carriers, the Japanese after Midway were quick to adopt CO2 gas lines, and other damage control measures that significantly reduced the risk of fires that had so badly devastated all the carriers at Midway. In 1944 this problem returned when the Japanese were forced to utilise highly volatile unrefined crude from Balipapaan and Tarakan. This fuel was apparently much more volatile than refined fuel, and the result was the repeat debacle at Phillipines Sea.
Given also that the Brit Carriers could operate in weather conditions that the other nationalities could not, and that she was equipped and her air group trained to operate at night, ther is really no issue for me....the illustrious wins hands down.....in a fight under the right conditions, she would make a meal out of either of the other two.
In 1940 her Fulmars and Swordfish, operating at night, or in the soupy conditions of the North Atlantic are going to outclass the F2as, the TBDs and the Vindicators then available to the USN by a wide margin. In 1941 and '42, the US Carrier achieves a notable superiority because of the wing folding SBDs, Avengers and Wildcats she was carrying. In 1943, the advantage swings slightly back in favour of the Brit carrier, because of her Corsairs that she now has embarked
With regards to the Yorktown I think you left out the final blows being 2 torpedoes from the I-168 (a 3rd had blown the USS Hammann (DD-412) in half).
Also, you have to keep in mind that at Coral Sea she had been hit by a Val and had been temprarily repaired in 4 days before Midway.
All true, but the ship was totally knocked out by the airstrikes. She was dead in the water and no lnger contributing to the battle.
Nope, you need to read up a little more on Midway.
From the posts in reply to by Post number XX I can see that I need to explain a few terms I have used. "Operational Maximum" to me is not a theoretical total or a total that can be embarked when the carrier is being used in a non-battle situation. It is the maximum carried into battle , and when a carrier is used in more than one battle, one should look into the maximums carried into as many of those battles as one has reliable information for.
. . . less aircraft than they were designed for, primarily because of the chronic pilot shortages that plagued the FAA at that time.
. . . operational maximums for the Yorktown . . . were not the same as those for her two sisters. I am not sure why that is the case, but it just is.
Unfortunately . . . the particular ship we are looking at.
So, what were the operational maximums of the carriers in question at comparable times in the war??? Turning first Yorktown and her sisters, I found the following:
31-12-41 (just prior to the Wake operation)
Enterprise: 72, Yorktown: 69
April '32 (Raids to the Marshalls)
Enterprise: 81, Hornet: 65
May '42 (Coral Sea)
Yorktown: 71
June '42 (Midway)
Enterprise: 78, Yorktown: 75, Hornet: 79
August '42 (Watchtower)
Enterprise: 84
Illustrious CAG (prior to selected operations
My point would be that no US fleet carrier was lost to bombs, nor Kamikazes, alone. That the US fleet carriers that were lost over the course of the war, Lexington, Yorktown, Hornet, and, being generous, Wasp, were all torpedoed. So to trot out Illustrious with her armored deck and claim some sort of superiority by comparison to non-armored deck ships lost to torpedoes is IMO somewhat disingenuous.
How about this, Illustrious was under repair at Norfolk Navy Yard for eleven months after her adventures in the Mediterranean. Eleven months. And is there a guess on how long the average USN CV spent in the yard after being hit by a bomb(s) or Kamikaze(s)? Looks like about 52 days on average, slightly less than 2 months and that includes almost a year for USS Franklin.
If you want to sink a ship, letting water in is much more efficient than letting daylight in. You compare apples and oranges.
Regards,
Rich