Was Hartmann a liar?

[Shadar_Logoth]

FANA N° 423 FÉVRIER 2005
Erich Hartmann, un total contesté : 352 victoires ou 80 ? (D. Khzanov)

In that article says that 352 claims for Hartamann, were false, mainly says that he shoot down and nobody confirmed that and if you check the soviet loses in those combats, there is many many many difference.

It says also, that there is not Luftwafe documented reports about those claims, what do you think? Was Hartmann a lier?.

Regards
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[Shadar_Logoth]

They says that Hartmann could had downed 80 enemy planes, which is still an impressive number.

 

[lesofprimus]

While the Russians are quick to discount his victories, and the days and locations pointed out, their claims of his victories are ALSO innacurate... Hartmann had a wingman (several actually) and 90% of his kills were confirmed.........

The rest is all propoganda...... Hartmann was NEVER a liar....... A very modest man till his death actually.......

 

[me262]

you can not trust the soviets reporst, put it this way: soviet propaganda , also remember tht the big difference beetwen the germans and allied pilots was that the allies usually took 6 months or x number of flgiths, on the german side, it was until the pilot was capture( pow), die or was injured

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

You only mention soviet Propaganda, but what about german propaganda?.
90% victorys were confirmed by his wingman, that's a not good way to confirm. I can't trust soviet reports but I have to trust Hartmann wingman reports... not serious.

Hartmann got his first victory in 1942, but he claimed more victorys when the reds got their best airplanes and they were in the offensive against germans, since 1943 (La5's, La5's Fn, Yak's 3).

The best way to confirm the victories is to check german claims versus soviet loses and make an aproximation. And I am talking about official reports, secret files and so.

I see that you are from USA and I suppose you know what happened with the Korean War USAAF claims, don't you?. USA and Rusia checked their files and... but sure you know that.

 

[me262]

there is the problem: do you think the goverment is going to allow us to search in the secrets file they have, i.e. the british gov have some files regarding the hunt of the bismarck and they will be declasified in 20 to 30 years more , why ? are they hiding something they do not want us to know?
also how we civilians can check that?
even here with the freedom of speach and search, we are limited to the info we can gatter

if i can remember well, it was not only the wingman to support the claim also it needed to find the wreck site to confirm me kill

 

[me262]

it was said that a plane is dangerous in the capable hands, do not matter is they are better or worst, the finish pilots managed to claims several victories, and aces, against the soviets in old buffalos, hence is the pilot that counts, another example is the spit and the 109, after the war they encountred againt this time the 109 got te upper hand, under the israelis pilots agains the arab spits

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!

 

[Chocks away!]

Well i have to agree. The man was nothing short of a hero, as his leadership was notable even when he was a POW in Russia! He just happened to be on the ''wrong'' side.

 

[me262]

The guy who wrote that article is an idiot

simply, is a frenchman
and as i can understand many frenchys are sore with 1/2 the world,specialy germany and the usa
i understand the german part, but the usa? , they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa

oh god you don't honestly believe that do you??

 

[Soren]

If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!

Agreed

And why then did they charge him of shooting down more than 300 Soviet a/c ?

Hartmann was NEVER a liar ! And I would without doubt even dare to say that a whole 95% of his confirmed kills are 'actual' kills.

---------------------------

And for Shadar,

Don't ever believe these Soviet dream-stories that try to degrade German scores, as they are all dirty lies !

The German confirmation system was the most strict and most accurate of WW2 ! On the other hand the Russian confirmation system was as inaccurate as almost can be, and relied heavily on unreliable partisans !

The Soviet ace Ivan Kozhedub doubtedly got even half of his kills

For example: Some soviet aces with scores from 30-40 kills, didnt even get 10 kills in reality ! All this has been established by looking in German loss-records, which 'again' are the most accurate of WW2.

Btw I actually remember Charles presenting a site commenting this Russian "fantasy-writer"=Khazanov: http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/hartmannclaims.html

Now who's the liar ?

In any case there's one thing you can be VERY sure of; The German confirmed kills are MUCH MUCH MUCH more accurate than the Soviet ones !

------------------------------

As sidenote: The W-Allies had a comparable confirmation system to the German one, but a little less strict by comparison.

 

[Soren]

they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa

oh god you don't honestly believe that do you??

Lanc without the U.S. involvement, the victory 'would' have gone to the Germans.

Think about it, no D-day, no Western and southern front to hold. If this had happened the Germans would have taken Russia, simple as that.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i don't want to go down this raod again, the last moron that came here with that atitude got kicked off........

 

[cheddar cheese]

To be honest Soren has a point.

 

[me262]

The W-Allies had a comparable confirmation system to the German one, but a little less strict by comparison.
[/quote
the problem with the american system it that they alowed share victories and count the one in the ground as a kill, in strafing raids

 

[Soren]

i don't want to go down this raod again, the last moron that came here with that atitude got kicked off........

This has nothing to do with attitude, its just fact.

The U.S. played a HUGE part in defeating the Nazi's !

The British, Canadian, french etc etc... troops all fought equally well and with just as much determination as the U.S. troops, but there's only so much one relatively small country can do.

Without the U.S. involvment there would be no D-day, no landing in Italy, no huge scale bombing of German industry = German victory in Russia.

And I dont think I need to tell you what would happen if Russia was defeated, now do I......... Britain would fall within the next year ! (If not sooner)

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

there is the problem: do you think the goverment is going to allow us to search in the secrets file they have, i.e. the british gov have some files regarding the hunt of the bismarck and they will be declasified in 20 to 30 years more , why ? are they hiding something they do not want us to know?
also how we civilians can check that?
even here with the freedom of speach and search, we are limited to the info we can gatter

if i can remember well, it was not only the wingman to support the claim also it needed to find the wreck site to confirm me kill

Historical Archives are open (paying) in Germany and Russia, in Russia since 1992, many writers and studients could see that files. I'm not talking about military secrets, only historical files.

I'm not speak in russian, but there is hundred of publications about WW2, many of it in Internet.

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!

That's a myth, Stalin purged many people without many evidence using false acusations, why do you believe that with hartmann was true? Do you have any docummented information about that reward?. It's a myth made for the western point of view about war.

Anyway, that article talks about 80 kills, thats is good enough.

And Rudel claimed 500 tanks, of course that's not an exageration

 

[Nonskimmer]

Soren has an excellent point here. The US did a tremendous part in WWII, and without their involvement victory for the Commonwealth and for the Soviet Union would have been exceedingly difficult at best. In fact, the war in the west would have certainly raged on for much longer than it did. There's no question.
Don't forget, the United States helped with materiel and supplies long before they began sending troops and planes too. Without them, victory would have been very much in doubt. It's a fact.