What is the best rifle of WWII?

[Demetrious]

"..... In my Opinion, Britian was the smallest of the main contributers to the war, even though it was once the only allie left"

Give your head a shake.

MM

Everybody gives that comment a big frowny-face, but I didn't see the Americans using British tanks, aircraft, or ships. Or Russian ones, for that matter. Meanwhile the British were operating P-40s in Africa, B-399 Buffalos in Asia, P-51 Mustangs, Sherman tanks and chassis, etc.

If you want to go by blood shed:

Objections to that statement in a qualitative sense I can understand, as well as a relative one, (England gave 100% of what she could give,) but in a quantitative sense I don't see how he's far wrong.

I may as well head off any comments accusing me of disparaging the British right now; without the technological co-operation between England and America the Allies chances of winning the war by 1945 would have been drastically reduced. England punched well above it's weight class throughout the war due to ingenuity and great technology. Many make a great deal of the "secret weapons" of the Luftwaffe, but nobody mentions England's total victory in the "battle of the beams" which had them directing German night bombers where-ever they pleased, code-breaking contributions, the complete defeat of the Abewher by British intelligence, etc.

 

[evangilder]

Actually, there were Americans that flew Spitfires and Mosquitos in USAAF markings. If you look in Roger Freeman's book The Mighty Eighth: The Color Record, there are photos of some of those.

 

[Demetrious]

Actually, there were Americans that flew Spitfires and Mosquitos in USAAF markings. If you look in Roger Freeman's book The Mighty Eighth: The Color Record, there are photos of some of those.

NO WAY! Were they using British Reece birds? What theater? To what end? Spits in the USAAF is something I need to know more about.

EDIT: Wiki says they equipped "Four squadrons in England and the Med." The unit descriptions indicate that all four were American "Eagle" squadron volunteer groups that were made official USAAF Squadrons upon America's entry into the war, much like the AVG.

Now this is fascinating. I never knew that Spits flew in US markings...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You already answered your own question. I was going to post the same info.

In the end however, what all the others are saying is that the British and the Commonwealth contributed as much toward the victory as anyone else (except maybe the Russians...) when it comes to the blood and sweat. They also fought the Germans for the longest time. So to say they contributed the least is wrong as well.

However I will refrain from getting into this kind of discussion in this thread, because well frankly it is off topic and has nothing to do with what is the "best rifle".

 

[Demetrious]

You already answered your own question. I was going to post the same info.

I've a subscription to WWII magazine and I've been obsessed with this conflict since age 10, and yet I still learn something new every time I post here. I love this place.

 

[parsifal]

The US also installed Merlin engines into their Mustang fighters. They accepted a large number of ASW escorts into their Atlantic Fleet....and the list goes on.

Britain and the commonwealth paid a hefty price in blood and gold to win the war. They could not have done it alone, but then no nation could have defeated the axis alone, not even the US

 

[Colin1]

...I didn't see the Americans using British tanks, aircraft, or ships.

Or Russian ones, for that matter. Meanwhile the British were operating P-40s in Africa, B-399 Buffalos in Asia, P-51 Mustangs, Sherman tanks and chassis...

Ever heard of Eagle Squadron?
You might not have used our ships but you sure as hell borrowed our steam catapult...
...and WE sure as hell didn't win the Battle of Britain in P-40s and Buffaloes; have a think where your next unsinkable aircraft carrier would have come from if we'd lost...

I do seem to recall saying that we didn't pretend to have the industrial might or capacity of the US but hey, what's a short attention span amongst friends... I was also unaware that the US were 'the Allies'. There is no doubt of their key role during WWII but I seem to remember there were others too?

This subject has raised its head before and it's just as offensive as it was then - qualitative OR quantative; I suggest we return to the theme of the thread: What is the best rifle of WWII and give this other issue its own thread to run, or we drop it completely for the tactless brainfart that it is.

Mr Zniper: in the 30 or so posts that you've been with us, you've proven that it's always best to:

i. engage brain
ii. submit post

in that order

 

[evangilder]

NO WAY! Were they using British Reece birds? What theater? To what end? Spits in the USAAF is something I need to know more about.

EDIT: Wiki says they equipped "Four squadrons in England and the Med." The unit descriptions indicate that all four were American "Eagle" squadron volunteer groups that were made official USAAF Squadrons upon America's entry into the war, much like the AVG.

Now this is fascinating. I never knew that Spits flew in US markings...

It was more than just Eagle squadrons, these were American units flying those aircraft with American markings, not British markings. I will dig out the book when I get home to get more info. They were in England with the 8th AF.

 

[Ferdinand Foch]

I'm gonna go with the Garand. I mean, I like the Lee Enfield and the Mosin Nagant, but I like the fact that I can fire eight bullets almost nonstop, and not having to throw the bolt back for every bullet. That, and reloading is a lot faster. Of course, you have to worry about jamming though, but you will have that problem with most guns.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ever heard of Eagle Squadron?
You might not have used our ships but you sure as hell borrowed our steam catapult...
...and WE sure as hell didn't win the Battle of Britain in P-40s and Buffaloes; have a think where your next unsinkable aircraft carrier would have come from if we'd lost...

I do seem to recall saying that we didn't pretend to have the industrial might or capacity of the US but hey, what's a short attention span amongst friends... I was also unaware that the US were 'the Allies'. There is no doubt of their key role during WWII but I seem to remember there were others too?

This subject has raised its head before and it's just as offensive as it was then - qualitative OR quantative; I suggest we return to the theme of the thread: What is the best rifle of WWII and give this other issue its own thread to run, or we drop it completely for the tactless brainfart that it is.

Mr Zniper: in the 30 or so posts that you've been with us, you've proven that it's always best to:

i. engage brain
ii. submit post

in that order

Very nice post my friend, and I agree. This thread is way off topic. I suggest everyone return to the original topic, as we all know how this discussion turns out.

 

[Colin1]

It was more than just Eagle squadrons, these were American units flying those aircraft with American markings, not British markings. I will dig out the book when I get home to get more info. They were in England with the 8th AF.

31st FG went operational in August 1942, Spitfire Vs
67th Tactical Reconnaissance Group in late 1942, Spitfire Vs

Just before the Eagle Squadrons joined the US 4th FG, they converted from Spitfire Vs to Spitfire IXs

25th BG used Mosquito PRXVIs

 

[stona]

From 1939 until June 1941 and operation barbarossa the Lee Enfield was effectively the only allied rifle in the game.
On D-Day,I've rounded these figures, 73,000 U.S.troops landed. The "smallest contributer" and her friends landed 83,000 (61,000 were British but there were many Canadians as well as men from all over the Empire/Commonwealth and contingents from countries under nazi occupation)
Getting off topic but as an example the Soviet Union received nearly 3000 Hurricanes,and many Spitfires.

Equating deaths with contribution to a war effort is nonsensical at best and I'm trying to be polite.
Snypeguy's sort of revisionism really pees me off and I suspect I'm not alone.
Cheers
Steve (off for a pint)

 

[parsifal]

A good read for Spitfires in US service: American Spitfire Aces of World War 2 By Andrew Thomas, Chris Davey

I know that for more than a year the Spitfire equipped the 52 FG, and may also have equipped the 31st FG

 

[Colin1]

...and may also have equipped the 31st FG

Yes
they were equipped with Mk Vs though I'm unsure of where they were stationed; given the range of the Spitfire very likely SE England

 

[riacrato]

I agree with you about the K98. I think it was an excellent ranged weapon (2nd to none), but I would rather carry a Garand into battle. I have a K98 back in the states and it shoots very very well.

Actually I rate the Mosin Nagant the better sniper rifle overall. For one it has a higher muzzle velocity, but more importantly it had much more standardisation when it comes to optics as opposed to the various scopes the K98k used. Hence my impression is the ratio of scoped / unscoped rifles was much better in the Soviet army.

K98k vs Lee Enfield, SMLE has the higher magazine capacity, but K98k is a bit stronger and better for mass production. It's more of a matter of opinion what is more important to you.

Best rifle is M1 Garand, though. SVT always had problems that were never really solved completely. MP43 is simply too late to count.

 

[michaelmaltby]

'... Very nice post my friend, and I agree. This thread is way off topic. I suggest everyone return to the original topic, as we all know how this discussion turns out."

I was about to react to the Spitfire-Mosquito "OMG I didn't know that" comment, but will refrain now.

The LeeEnfield is still a front-line rifle used in defence of Canada's great north. They're issued to Canada's Inuit Rangers because they are reliable under unbelievable field conditions, are very accurate, and besides - they also work well for hunting seal and caribou.

Are any of the other choices on the voting list still ISSUED to military forces?

MM

 

[timshatz]

I've a subscription to WWII magazine and I've been obsessed with this conflict since age 10, and yet I still learn something new every time I post here. I love this place.

Also, during Operation Drumbeat (the Uboat offensive along the East Coast of the US), the Brits lent the US a bunch of Armed Trawlers to escort and do some ASW work. At least one of them was sunk of NC. Pretty wild fight. The U-boat surfaced and chased the Trawler. Trawler's gun jammed (IIRC) and the crew went over the side. U-boat eventually sank the trawler (or did enough damage that it ended up sinking).

 

[Demetrious]

Ever heard of Eagle Squadron?
You might not have used our ships but you sure as hell borrowed our steam catapult...
...and WE sure as hell didn't win the Battle of Britain in P-40s and Buffaloes; have a think where your next unsinkable aircraft carrier would have come from if we'd lost...

Those Spitfires would have stayed on Terra Firma if not for the 100 octane fuel we shipped you just in time for the Battle of Britain.

This subject has raised its head before and it's just as offensive as it was then - qualitative OR quantative;

I have exactly zero patience with all the nationalistic ego tied up in the Battle of Britain. How, exactly, Germany was going to invade a nation that had uncontested control of the seas with a hodge-podge fleet of barges, air superiority or no?

Compare that to D-Day, which seems to hold an iconic place in the American consciousness even though the English took their own beaches alongside us. Hollywood has always slighted that part of it.

qualitative OR quantative

So any discussion of comparative national power- even ones that give England it's just due as an indispensable part of the Allied war effort- are verboten? Given what this board is about, that seems rather problematic. And mystifying, because England's role was so crucial that I consistently hesitate to describe it as a "part," or "contribution." It's not like England can't stand on it's record.

Are any of the other choices on the voting list still ISSUED to military forces?

Actually, the M-1 is still in service with a few militaries aroudn the world, I think. Let me see if I can find who.

 

[michaelmaltby]

Attached images from USAF museum, Dayton.
MM

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Are any of the other choices on the voting list still ISSUED to military forces?

MM

Norway still uses variants of the K98 today as a sniper weapon.

During the Balkan war of the 1990s the K98 was still in being used.

The German Bundeswehr Wachbataillon still used the K98, but that is only for parades and ceremonies.

Examples of all of the above weapons have been found in Iraq. We got to see a nice example of a K98 and Garand in one of Saddam's Palaces.