When a man's Honor meant something ...

Really my friend?

Would this have anything to do with him living out the rest of his days in your country? Maybe time enough to improve his PR? Just asking...

No I think Marcel is just not naive enough to see the one sidedness and incorectness of putting all the blame on Germany. He sees the whole picture, not just a portion of it that many want to believe.

Just saying...

From the Wiki: Causes of World War I

The main causes of World War I, which began in central Europe in late July 1914, included many factors, such as the conflicts and hostility between the great European powers of the four decades leading up to the war. Militarism, alliances, imperialism, and nationalism played major roles in the conflict as well. The immediate origins of the war, however, lay in the decisions taken by statesmen and generals during the July Crisis of 1914 caused by the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand (the Archduke of Austria Hungary) and his wife Sophie by Gavrilo Princip, an irredentist Serb and member of the Serbian nationalist organization, the Black Hand.

The crisis came after a long and difficult series of diplomatic clashes between the Great Powers (Italy, France, Germany, the British Empire, the Austria-Hungarian Empire and Russia) over European and colonial issues in the decade before 1914 that had left tensions high. In turn these diplomatic clashes can be traced to changes in the balance of power in Europe since 1867. The more immediate cause for the war was tensions over territory in the Balkans. Austria-Hungary competed with Serbia and Russia for territory and influence in the region and they pulled the rest of the Great Powers into the conflict through their various alliances and treaties.

Some of the most important long term or structural causes are: the growth of nationalism across Europe, unresolved territorial disputes, an intricate system of alliances, the perceived breakdown of the balance of power in Europe, convoluted and fragmented governance, the arms races of the previous decades, previous military planning, imperial and colonial rivalry for wealth, power and prestige, and economic and military rivalry in industry and trade – e.g., the Pig War between Austria and Serbia. Other causes that came into play during the diplomatic crisis that preceded the war included misperceptions of intent (e.g., the German belief that the United Kingdom would remain neutral) and delays and misunderstandings in diplomatic communications.

The various categories of explanation for World War I correspond to different historians' overall methods. Most historians and popular commentators include causes from more than one category of explanation to provide a rounded account of the causes of the war. The deepest distinction among these accounts is between stories that see it as the inevitable and predictable outcome of certain factors, and those that describe it as an arbitrary and unfortunate mistake. In attributing causes for the war, historians and academics had to deal with an unprecedented flood of memoirs and official documents, released as each country involved tried to avoid blame for starting the war. Early releases of information by governments, particularly those released for use by the "Commission on the Responsibility of the Authors of the War" were shown to be incomplete and biased. In addition some documents, especially diplomatic cables between Russia and France, were found to have been doctored.

I don't recall ever using Germany in any of my replies to this thread. I simply stated that I believe the Kaiser was a POS (Not excluding any other leaders of the day) and added that he was ARGUABLY responsible for World War I. Too simplistic? Probably, but I'm open to being schooled. In fact most of my knowledge comes from Guns of August and World War I by I believe Beavor. Anyway, I believe this kind soul, it was revealed later, believed everything was done for the honor of the arch dukes country and that war should be avoided. But what did he do, because he was so honorable? Promptly invaded Belgium on his way to France...class act. And I'm naive? Oh, so he must have done all he could to stop it huh? My bad.

Capt. Vick said:

I don't recall ever using Germany in any of my replies to this thread. I simply stated that I believe the Kaiser was a POS (Not excluding any other leaders of the day) and added that he was ARGUABLY responsible for World War I. Too simplistic? Probably, but I'm open to being schooled. In fact most of my knowledge comes from Guns of August and World War I by I believe Beavor. Anyway, I believe this kind soul, it was revealed later, believed everything was done for the honor of the arch dukes country and that war should be avoided. But what did he do, because he was so honorable? Promptly invaded Belgium on his way to France...class act. And I'm naive? Oh, so he must have done all he could to stop it huh? My bad.

Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is saying that he did not share responsibility in the matter. The responsibility however goes back much further than the Kaisers time. The Allied powers did nothing to avoid a war as well. If he is a POS for those reasons, then so are the others...

That is why I say simplistic.

Capt. Vick said:

Really my friend?

Would this have anything to do with him living out the rest of his days in your country? Maybe time enough to improve his PR? Just asking...

Click to expand...

well, no. Wilhelm was not much liked here. His presence here was a nuisance. He himself as a person was not very likable. And I myself am like my country in that war a neutral. But fact is that Wilhelm didn't like many of the actions that his government and military did. He was always weary of provoking France. He didn't like the sending of the Panther to Tanger and also still tried to stop the war with France a day before it broke out.

I wouldn't call you naive, but fact is that the origin of the Great War is complicated. The opinion is much distorted by the Allieds at the end of the war and they gave a much simpler explanation that is easier swallowed by the public mass.

Quite right Marcel Chris.

WW1 was almost a certainty, huge egos,arrogance, and unsettled disputes, tensions and suspicion.
Combine that with military ambition and might...plus a very effective proganda machine and you have war.
The campaign as envisaged by all leaders was a cut and thrust mobile war.... not the static attrition that it quickly decended into.
I cannot believe that any country would want that.
Trouble is... once you start how do you end it??
A problem in 1914 as much as it is today.

BBC - History - British History in depth: A New Enemy

Have a read through this.

We who strike the enemy where his heart beats have been slandered as 'baby killers' ... Nowadays, there is no such animal as a noncombatant. Modern warfare is total warfare.
—Peter Strasser

Strasser was ahead of his time and limited only by the early technology.

If you spin forward to WW2, this a transcript of a conversation.


REV. JOHN COLLINS
We began the war in the defense of humanity, with God on our side!
SIR ARTHUR 'BOMBER' HARRIS
Did *He* tell you that? He didn't tell *me*.
REV. JOHN COLLINS
I think it so!
SIR ARTHUR 'BOMBER' HARRIS
You're privileged, Collins. I was just told to win the war with every means at my disposal, but not God.

I have been trying to find out if Harris took inspiration from Strassers single mindedness and sheer determination.
I'll say this, if Strasser was in charge of the LW in WW2 things may well have turned out differently.

Wish we could still have the good old days...when the world wasn't fricking as screwed up as it is now....

Nice stuff, John. I believe the fear for Germany was irreal, as the Germans never even came close to match the British strength in fleet. Too bad the British had people like Grey in power, his paranoia made things worse and ended Up in the UK joining the war.

Wayne Little said:

Wish we could still have the good old days...when the world wasn't fricking as screwed up as it is now....

Click to expand...

I believe things were screwed then as much as it is now. Hence the possibility to start a war that defied all what is human. Things were not better back then, just different. The act of the man in the first post is an exeption. We still have those exeptions today.

I wish we all could have a beer and some thing to eat.

A few more hours my friend...

Capt. Vick said:

I wish we all could have a beer and some thing to eat.

Click to expand...

Well, come over here and I'll buy

Capt. Vick said:

I wish we all could have a beer and some thing to eat.

Click to expand...

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

A few more hows my friend...

Click to expand...

Marcel said:

Well, come over here and I'll buy

Click to expand...

I'll eat and drink to that!

Me too

Pity we cannot all met at some point half way across the Atlantic and have a bloody good old fashioned piss up

Agreed

This made think of this Battle of Hürtgen Forest: Temporary Cease-Fires Allowed Assistance for the Wounded Soldiers
When you first and foremost, were a fellow human being, brother in arms, and what uniform you wore, meant nothing....

Readie said:

Me too

Pity we cannot all met at some point half way across the Atlantic and have a bloody good old fashioned piss up

Click to expand...

Could always 'borrow' a Lancaster, fly over in style!
If not that perhaps a Dehavilland Comet?

Readie said:

Me too

Pity we cannot all met at some point half way across the Atlantic and have a bloody good old fashioned piss up

Click to expand...

That is just too cool to contemplate. Like winning the lotto. 8)

Well, let's first win BIG and then we'll have the piss up of the millennia!