When did German fighter pilot quality start to decline?

[ykickamoocow]

Basically the question is in the title but this is something I have often wondered when talking about planes shot down and stuff like that, wondering if a kill against a German fighter aircraft in 1944 would be as hard or worth as much as a kill of a German fighter plane in 1940 when the Luftwaffe was at the peak of its powers in terms of technical edge over opponents and more importantly in terms of their fighter pilot training.

Is an ace who got his kills in 1944/1945 considered as good as an ace who got his kills in 1940/1941 considering that by 1944 the Germans were sending out pilots with a lot less training? Also, is the training something that needs to be taken into account when talking about how various aircraft did against the Luftwaffe, for instance how the Mark 1 Spitfire went against the Luftwaffe at its height, while the P51-D went up against the Luftwaffe when it was in decline.

Is that an accurate claim, and if so how would it affect discussions on allied WW2 aircraft, trying to take into account the decline of the Luftwaffe in terms of pilot training, technical innovation and general numbers?

Or am I completely reading this wrong, and a kill against the Luftwaffe in December 1944 would be worth as much and be just as hard as it would have been in July 1940?

I hope this thread makes sense. In my head it definitely makes sense.

 

[pbehn]

Possibly from the moment the LW or the politicians decided to create living hero warriors. In any sport a team of 11 very good players will beat ten of mixed ability with one "ace". In 1944 a newly qualified fresh to theatre USA pilot had a chance against LW ace, because knowledge had been passed back from US pilots to training schools and clobber colleges and pilots had many hours in training. A newly qualified LW pilot had little chance against a US ace or even a newly qualified pilot. The German aces were concentrated in increasingly elite squadrons, they knew what they were doing, but who else did?

 

[fubar57]

I wonder how many Luftwaffe pilots became "Experten" from 1944 on. I can find tons of lists about aces but their start times will be the time consuming part

 

[Greyman]

I've read arguments/opinions that the decline started early - during the Battle of Britain or even the Battle of France.

EDIT: coloured the chart for readability

 

[fliger747]

Shortly after takeoff?

 

[michael rauls]

I recently read a quote from one of the well known Luftwaffe aces( I believe it was Galland but can't remember for sure) that they lost alot of great pilots that could never be replaced in the Battle of Britain and that is when the general deterioration of pilot quality started.
This quote suprised me as I had always thought of it as being much later like late 43 into 44.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Luftwaffe flight school was comprehensive before and at the start of the war and produced high quality pilots, both in single-engine and multi-engine types.

The problem was, that Germany did not place their manufacturing or their pilot schools on a war-time footing in the early days of the war and by mid-war, they were in trouble. Serious trouble.

So as aircraft and fuel became in short supply, they had to accelerate their training program and after the debacle at Stalingrad, where they lost a considerable number of instructors (and training aircraft), the quality of their pilots declined considerably.

If one takes a look at the Luftwaffe aces, there more and more non-commissioned officer "experten" late war as attrition takes it's toll. When I say non-commisioned, I mean even down to a Gefreiter, which is basically an Airman First Class.

 

[taly01]

Possibly from the moment the LW or the politicians decided to create living hero warriors.

Both Luftwaffe and USAAF were obsessed more than any other nations in ace making for propaganda. The USAAF had the manpower luxury of restricting top aces flying time to keep them alive (not always working for Kearby & McGuire) while Luftwaffe shortages meant their aces often ended up been consigned to "fly till you die" unless they got promoted to a staff position.

But the Luftwaffe practise of promoting aces to leadership positions was flawed as a good combat pilot is not necessarily a good manager (or even necessarily a good analyst of the total situation), and arguably taking Molders and Galland off combat operations to staff positions in 1941 cost the Luftwaffe 600 lost kills.

 

[davebender]

German fighter pilot quality started to decline when they started running short of fuel for aircrew training. Eric Hartman experienced fuel shortages during 1942 which caused his training to take longer than it should have. During 1943 to 1945 it just kept getting worse.

 

[Csch605]

Basically the question is in the title but this is something I have often wondered when talking about planes shot down and stuff like that, wondering if a kill against a German fighter aircraft in 1944 would be as hard or worth as much as a kill of a German fighter plane in 1940 when the Luftwaffe was at the peak of its powers in terms of technical edge over opponents and more importantly in terms of their fighter pilot training.

Is an ace who got his kills in 1944/1945 considered as good as an ace who got his kills in 1940/1941 considering that by 1944 the Germans were sending out pilots with a lot less training? Also, is the training something that needs to be taken into account when talking about how various aircraft did against the Luftwaffe, for instance how the Mark 1 Spitfire went against the Luftwaffe at its height, while the P51-D went up against the Luftwaffe when it was in decline.

Is that an accurate claim, and if so how would it affect discussions on allied WW2 aircraft, trying to take into account the decline of the Luftwaffe in terms of pilot training, technical innovation and general numbers?

Or am I completely reading this wrong, and a kill against the Luftwaffe in December 1944 would be worth as much and be just as hard as it would have been in July 1940?

I hope this thread makes sense. In my head it definitely makes sense.

Certainly the German pilots who had been in Spain were the best but if my mememory is correct only around two hundred fighter pilots participated in Sapin similar to the Russians numbers I believe.

 

[Milosh]

Even in the BoB pilot quality was suffering. Have a quote of a commander someplace on my hard drive saying new pilots required more training before going into combat. Will post if I find it.

 

[Dimlee]

Certainly the German pilots who had been in Spain were the best but if my mememory is correct only around two hundred fighter pilots participated in Sapin similar to the Russians numbers I believe.

Soviet (not Russian, of course) numbers: 772 aviators were in Spain according to Russian sources of 2000-2010s. 92 or 93 KIA. There were certainly those who left active service due to wounds or age or moved to office work.

 

[Freebird]

I've read arguments/opinions that the decline started early - during the Battle of Britain or even the Battle of France.

EDIT: coloured the chart for readability
View attachment 528264

Excellent table - thanks for posting!

 

[General Dad]

I've read arguments/opinions that the decline started early - during the Battle of Britain or even the Battle of France.

EDIT: coloured the chart for readability
View attachment 528264

Please do you have the source for this chart? It is excellent and I would like to be able to cite it.

Thanks, General Dad

 

[Greyman]

Strategy for Defeat The Luftwaffe 1933-1945
Williamson Murray

You're in luck - available online: Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945

Table referenced in this section: Strategy for Defeat: The Luftwaffe 1933-1945
Direct link: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AAF-Luftwaffe/tables/AAF-Luftwaffe-LXX.jpg

 

[General Dad]

Greyman - Thank you for your quick reply. Another book to read!

Cheers, Gen Dad

 

[PAT303]

Even in the BoB pilot quality was suffering. Have a quote of a commander someplace on my hard drive saying new pilots required more training before going into combat. Will post if I find it.

''The seeds of defeat of the German fighter force in 1944 were sown over the fields of Kent in 1940'', JG26 Top Guns of the Luftwaffe p71.

 

[windhund116]

''The seeds of defeat of the German fighter force in 1944 were sown over the fields of Kent in 1940'', JG26 Top Guns of the Luftwaffe p71.

Supply and logistics has to play a role in the decline in new Luftwaffe pilots, too. It's hard to train without adequate fuel, trainer planes, instructors, etc. Also, tough to train when the areas that you are training at is being bombed daily and strafed by roving fighters.

 

[Admiral Beez]

''The seeds of defeat of the German fighter force in 1944 were sown over the fields of Kent in 1940'', JG26 Top Guns of the Luftwaffe p71.

So, essentially German fighter pilot quality was on a downward slope from the end of the Battle of France until VE Day. Just how did these buggers think they were going to defeat the globe?

Still, I'd bet the average Luftwaffe fighter squadron of Jan 1945 would have better trained pilots than an IJN or IJAF fighter squadron of the same time.

 

[BiffF15]

So, essentially German fighter pilot quality was on a downward slope from the end of the Battle of France until VE Day. Just how did these buggers think they were going to defeat the globe?

Still, I'd bet the average Luftwaffe fighter squadron of 1945 would have better trained pilots than an IJN or IJAF fighter squadron of the same time.

You are probably right. At least the Luftwaffe was teaching them how to land...