Wrecks of Dutch warships have disappeared

[stona]

I just don't get how this happened without anyone noticing.

Knowing or caring?

That is the rather unpalatable question.

Cheers

Steve

 

[parsifal]

I would like to think it was a navigational error in the original fix , but unlikely.

 

[rank amateur]

My sentiment exactly but I assume the people that did take notice, were paid off. Wages in the Indonesian service being too modest to avoid a bit of corruption.

 

[nuuumannn]

Very sad. Vandals.

Australian authorities have tried to keep the scandal a secret, fearing the issue might add fuel to the ongoing diplomatic tensions between Australia and Indonesia.

This is rather sickening, the fact that politicians have deliberately deceived the public about this matter. It's no wonder Trump got in.

 

[GrauGeist]

Shinpachi did bring up a good point about the Christmas Tsunami of '04.

The forces generated by that event were tremendous and not only very capable of moving shipwrecks a great distance, but also scouring the seabed of any traces, too.

Perhaps they should evaluate the Tsunami's path in that area and then look downrange.

 

[Marcel]

Would a tsunami sweep away a 10000 tons ship and leave the sea bed undisturbed? The imprints of the ships are still there. Seems highly unlikely. Also, a part is missing of destroyer Kortenaer. I don't think a tsunami would break off certain parts of a small ship while totally removing the larger ships. And last evidence which is decisive: The ships were still there in 2010 as that was the last time a Dutch group dived to the wreckage.

 

[Shinpachi]

Java war memorial in 2014.
This Indonesian commander does not look happy to be there as Indonesian navy has nothing to do with the battle.
The wrecks are nothing but bothersome legacy for Indonesians. They could be happy if truly disappeared.
Just my opinion.

 

[GrauGeist]

I thought that the last time they had been seen was in 2002, that's why I considered the Tsunami as a possibility.

In regards to a Tsunami moving 10,000 tons...it is possible, especially one of the magnitude of the 2004 event. The Krakatoa Tsunami uprooted a 600 ton piece of coral reef and carried it a considerable distance onshore while at the same time, hurled a Steamship (Berouw) well over a mile inland, depositing it up in a valley 32 feet (10m) above sea level.

But it appears that the Tsunami idea is ruled out and that some corrupt douchebags in the Indonesian government have some explaining to do...

 

[Thorlifter]

But it appears that the Tsunami idea is ruled out and that some corrupt douchebags in the Indonesian government have some explaining to do...

.....but probably wont.

 

[Marcel]

I thought that the last time they had been seen was in 2002, that's why I considered the Tsunami as a possibility.

In regards to a Tsunami moving 10,000 tons...it is possible, especially one of the magnitude of the 2004 event. The Krakatoa Tsunami uprooted a 600 ton piece of coral reef and carried it a considerable distance onshore while at the same time, hurled a Steamship (Berouw) well over a mile inland, depositing it up in a valley 32 feet (10m) above sea level.

But it appears that the Tsunami idea is ruled out and that some corrupt douchebags in the Indonesian government have some explaining to do...

I do believe the tsunami can shift a 10000 ton ship, but can't believe it is picky and leave the smaller ships while taking the bigger ones.

I don't know about that last part. I think it is too early for accusations and also I believe that is too dangerous.

 

[Thorlifter]

But finger pointing and assumptions is how this stupid world works now!

Seriously though, I believe the evidence leans heavily towards theft.

 

[GrauGeist]

I am just baffled at how something like this can just slip under the nose of authorities otherwise.

Even along the remote border of Bulgaria, where the buried panzers were, a group of guys tried to steal a buried Tiger and got caught.

This is infinitely larger than a tank...someone had to see something, it's just not going to vanish overnight.

Perhaps my original suggestion holds - go over archived satellite photos of the region and see.

 

[Marcel]

But finger pointing and assumptions is how this stupid world works now!

Seriously though, I believe the evidence leans heavily towards theft.

Yes of course. That is the general opinion here. And we also have witness accounts of the ships being transferred, but I don't know how reliable these witnesses are. But who did it and who is to blame for what is still way too early and I agree with Simpachi that we should be careful with that. What we need is cooperation and we won't get that when we start accusing everybody.

 

[GrauGeist]

I just did a little deeper reading on the subject and have found that this situation is more advanced than it seemed at first look.

Here is a list of the shipwrecks involved:
HNLMS De Ruyter
HNLMS Java
HNLMS Kortenaer
HNLMS 0-16
HMS Exeter
HMS Encounter
HMS Repulse
HMS Prince of Wales
USS Houston
USS Perch
Add to this list, several Imperial Japanese vessels, too.


There has been sightings of a Mongolian flagged salvage barge operating in the area for a while, according to eyewitnesses.

Here's an article about the HMS Perth being plundered along with a photo of an illegal barge with the Dutch submarine scrap aboard: HMAS Perth grave stripped by salvagers

And it's not just WWII war graves being illegally plundered: Illegal Salvage Ship Ruins Iconic Singapore Wreck Dive

 

[Marcel]

So is the prince of wales also removed? That is really a big operation.

 

[GrauGeist]

Seems like it, Marcel

Also, the USS Perch (SS 176) has completely vanished.

Unlike many of the other wreck sites, the Perch wasn't a war grave. She was scuttled (3 March 1942) after receiving considerable depth-charge damage by IJN Destroyers (Amatsukaze and Hatsukaze), her entire crew was captured and all but 5 perished in Japanese prison camps during the war.

 

[Shinpachi]

The entire crew was captured by the Japanese destroyer Ushio. Of the fifty-four men and five officers, all but five — who died of malnutrition in Japanese prisoner-of-war camps — were able to return to the United States after V-J Day. Wiki: USS Perch (SS-176)

 

[Marcel]

Seems like it, Marcel

Also, the USS Perch (SS 176) has completely vanished.

Unlike many of the other wreck sites, the Perch wasn't a war grave. She was scuttled (3 March 1942) after receiving considerable depth-charge damage by IJN Destroyers (Amatsukaze and Hatsukaze), her entire crew was captured and all but 5 perished in Japanese prison camps during the war.

As I read it, the wrecks of Repulse and Prince of Wales have been stripped. The ships themselves have not been removed like what happened to the De Ruyter and the rest. But it shows that these things do happen.

 

[Gnomey]

To physically remove the PoW and Repulse would be a serious job that surely couldn't of gone unnoticed by someone...

 

[parsifal]

Remember that the Indonesian independence movement sided with the Japanese during and immediately after the war. They were not anti west, but neither do they have much allegiance or sympathy to our sensibilities.

They will happily send to the firing squad a white man or a man of chiese descent, even if tht man has a demonstrated rehabilitation going on, but will not lift a finger against the spiritual leader of the Bali bombing ring. This is a soft version of the blowing up of world heritage sites by the Taliban or ISIL . They love to make us uncomfortable.