WWII submarines...which was the better one?

[Glider]

Glider,

Nearly all the equipment I listed were standard for German U-boats. (Anto radar coating for the schnorchel was not)

If you found some comments on U-boat net then look at the bottom of the page to see the sources, cause U-boat.net always backs up its information with a list of respectable sources.

I have nothing but respect for Uboat.net an excellent site. However I also use other sources

And about the Allied acoustic torpedo, again it was NOT effective and it was incredibly small unlikely to cause any serious damage to what'ever it hit. The German accoustic homing torpedoes on the other hand were the same fullsize torpedoes with a 280 kg warhead as their std. torpedoes and their homing system was a whole lot better.

The allied acoustic torpedo was effective. It was designed to strike against escorts and any escort hit would be out of the battle which was the idea. I didn't mention the Mk28 torpedo which was a full sized version that just made the war due to the very low numbers used.
The Mk 27 was a very stealthy torpedo that self launched not needing compressed air which meant that the target had no clues to know that it was coming. A very valuble attribute when taking on escorts.

And about the anti radar coatings, well they were infact highly effective, reducing radar signature by 90%. However not many U-boats were equipped with this.

We willl have to agree to disagree on this

Furthermore German subs also used anti sonar coatings, making them harder to spot with sonar. This worked very well, reducing the signature by about 15%, not much, however the noise of the boat was reduced as-well increasing the stealth capability of the boat.

This was new to me and interesting

 

[AL Schlageter]

And you claim not to be biased

You want me to make a generalized statement, well sorry but its not that simple since there were different types of U-boats around.

You were the one making the claim German sonar was so accurate. I should mention those boats were lost very late in the war.

Unlike some, I can see both the good and bad points of a design.

Pick each model of U-boat and give us its negative/bad points. Not that hard to do for one that claims he has no bias unless you are claiming the U-boats were completely faultless and American boats were pigs.

 

[AL Schlageter]

T4 Electric
7500m/20kts

Falke, the first homing torpedo, was fitted with a passive acoustic homing device. It was introduced in March, 1943 and used by U-603 (Oblt. Bertelsmann), U-758 (Kptlt. Manseck) and U-221 (Kptlt. Trojer) against convoys HX-229 and SC-122. Few were used as it was replace by the T5 which was faster, had a greater range and could be used with either magnetic or contact detonators.

7s T5 Electric
5700m/24kts

The Zaunköning (Wren) came into service during the autumn of 1943. Intended to be an escort-killer, it achieved some early minor success only to be countered by the allied Foxer noise-making decoy. It was scoring hits against escort and merchants to the end of the war though.

The weapon was designed to lock onto the loudest noise after a run of 400m from its launch. This often proved to be the U-boat itself and standard issue-orders were to dive immediately to depth of 60m after launch froma bow tube while a stern shot was to be followed by a complete silence in the boat. Two U-boats were almost certainly lost when hit by one of their own T5 torpedoes, U-972 in Dec 1943 and U-377 in Jan 1944.

T11 Electric
5700m/24kts

A modified T5, less affected by Foxer. Never used in battle conditions although late test results were promising.

uboat.net - Technical pages

MG 42 G (gU)
FuMO 30

This was an improved version of the rotating mast version of FMG 41G (gU), with a direction finder added, ready in late 1942. It was built into all U-boats. However, it was easily disabled by depth charges or bombs, and the antennas corroded in the salt water. Commanders did not like to use it, because they feared that it gave away their position.

FuMO 61 Hohentwiel U
FuMO 65 Hohentwiel U1

Hohentwiel was developed for installation in aircraft, to be used against surface ships. The first working radar in this series appeared in September 1942, and from August 1943 onwards the radar was installed in naval reconnaissance aircraft such as the Fw 200 and He 177. Hohentwiel radars operated on 550MHz (55cm), and later models were tunable between 525 and 575MHz.

In 1943 Lorentz was instructed to adapt Hohentwiel for naval use, and soon Hohentwiel appeared on U-boats, small surface ships, and coastal installations. These Hohentwiel radars contained only 19 valves and, by the standards of the time, were easy to maintain and reliable. The U-Boat FuMO 61 version had a 1 by 1.4 meter rotating antenna (again an array of dipoles) on a mast. Size of the antenna and height of the mast were restricted by installation on an U-boot, and range was 10km against ships and 20km against aircraft; installations on surface ships had double that range. Resolution was about 3 degrees, and at short range its range accuracy was 100 meters. FuMO 65 replaced the traditional radar display, which had separate oscilloscope screens indicating range and azimuth, by a PPI (Plan Position Indicator) screen, known to the Germans as 'Drauf'. This is kind of radar display most familiar to us today, a circular display on which the position of a target is directly indicated as the radar beam sweeps round. FuMO 65 was installed in only a few Type XXI submarines. It was considered a very useful piece of equipment, especially for navigation in coastal waters.

FuMO 83 Berlin U I
FuMO 84 Berlin U II

The Berlin series of centimetric (9cm) radars, built by Telefunken, was based on the British development of the cavity magnetron, as found in a British bomber shot down near Rotterdam on 3 February 1943. This was a painful surprise for the Germans. Not only were they far behind in the development of centimetric radar, they had just abandoned it, in the belief that it would not be effective. Tests of the captured radar, code named Rotterdam, revealed its performance, and it was quickly copied under the name 'Berlin'. As was typical, the German copy was better engineered than its British equivalent, and thus considerably lighter and smaller.

FuMO 83 had four ceramic stub antennas (whatever those are?) in a plastic sphere, which was again installed on top of a rotating mast. It could be used for panoramic scanning or for direction finding. The system was tested on an U-Boot (alas it is not said which one!), and gave a view as "from a balloon 200 metres above the boat", according to its skipper.

FuMO 84 was the final version, which did not use a retractable mast. The system never went into production.

Ballspiel

Ballspiel was a gunnery radar for U-boats. Like most German radars at the end of the war, it was a development of Berlin. It had a range of 25km, but for practical gunnery only 8km was used. It had an azimuth accuracy of about 1 degree and a range accuracy of 500 meters. It is known that Ballspiel was used in active service, but there are no data about its effectiveness.

uboat.net - Technical pages

 

[Soren]

So AL, are you claiming that no US boats were lost to minefields ??

German sonar was very accurate, thats just fact, but any WWII boat could run unsuspectedly into a minefield.

And about the U-boats, well the German U-boats have Optics, stealth, maneuverability firepower as their main advantages. The US boats generally have surface speed, surface range size going for them.

 

[renrich]

One of the characteristics of the subs in WW2 which was of great importance which I don't believe anyone has mentioned is habitability. Crew performance was directly linked to this feature. I believe that the US Fleet Boats were outstanding in this area for the WW2 era.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Soren and Schlageter dont turn this thread into another one of your personal flame wars.

If you do so, we moderators will close another thread and you all will have ruined it for other users of the site.

Do both of you understand?

 

[Lucky13]

Was just going to ask that, about crews living standards etc...

 

[Soren]

Adler,

Just remember who started throwing the mud.

 

[Soren]

One of the characteristics of the subs in WW2 which was of great importance which I don't believe anyone has mentioned is habitability. Crew performance was directly linked to this feature. I believe that the US Fleet Boats were outstanding in this area for the WW2 era.

US boats were very good in this regard, no doubt. The German U-boats fitted with the schnorchel probably had the best habitability of all. The Type XXI featured the best habitability of all U-boats with a much more efficient air-conditioning system than previous types and excellent crew quarters.

 

[Glider]

Soren
I have been looking into the anti sonar coatings that you mentioned and your information seems to be incomplete.

The one you seem to be talking about is called Alberich

This consisted of synthetic rubber sheets of about 4mm in thickness the noise reduction of 15% was claimed but no conclusive tests were undertaken.
It also acted as a sound dampener, containing the U-boat's own engine noise.
But the sheets partially washed off and the sheets flapped in the water causing a huge amount of noise and drag which also reduced the underwater speed of the boat.

A Type II coastal boat for trials on its sound absorbing properties and one Type IXc was treated. The problems with the adhesive stopped any further treatments until late 1944 when it was tested again. Things had improved but only one type XXIII was treated by the wars end.

So to sum up your last posting

And about the U-boats, well the German U-boats have Optics, stealth, maneuverability firepower as their main advantages. The US boats generally have surface speed, surface range size going for them.

German First
Optics - Yes, surpassed by allied radar
Stealth - No
Maneuverability - Where did this one come from? but probably yes for the Type VII and no for the Type IX
Fire power - No, not with less tubes and torpedo's plus smaller guns

Then the US
Surface Speed - Yes
Surface range - No, the larger type IX's had a better range than the US Fleet Boats
Size - Yes in most cases
Habitability - The USA had a clear lead here over all nations. Air conditioning in the boats as standard, refrigerated food, Petty officers were in two bunk area's as were officers, the list goes on.

What I have found interesting is that you have never picked up on some serious advantages that the Germans did have, but because I am feeling wicked, I will let you find those out.

Two things we will agree on though, is that in the first half of the war, the German Boats were much better than any other nations boats including the US.
Plus Type XXI's were way ahead at the end of the war.

 

[Soren]

The German boats featured more silent electric engines, the schnorchel, and Alberich. So when the Alberich wasn't shredded the German U-boats were definitely more stealthy.

As to firepower, well German torpedoes were allot more reliable and weren't prone to failure as the US torpedoes were. Many US torpedoes turned out to be duds. German torps were also non-tracable, the US were not.

As for habitability the Type XXI beats them all with excellent air-conditioning, crew quarters, food storage etc etc...

The German subs also featured refrigerators, so this wasn't a unique feature with US subs.

 

[Lucky13]

Had the XXI seen combat in '43 when they started to build them, the war in the Atlantic could have changed slightly. Also, didn't the XXI featured an advanced sonar system which allowed the crew to aim torpedoes without relying on the periscope, increasing stealth? Or am I remembering completely wrong?

 

[renrich]

Soren, the accounts I have read of the boats traveling with the snorkel was that it was horrible for the crews with the air pressure changing constantly so I don't think those boats were notable for there habitability.

 

[Soren]

Please give reference of this Renrich because hearing about this is definitely a first for me. Change in pressure how ?

According to all the accounts I've read the Schnorchel made things a whole lot better for the crew, constantly supplying fresh air throughtout the boat, removing any bad odor build ups.

 

[Glider]

The German boats featured more silent electric engines, the schnorchel, and Alberich. So when the Alberich wasn't shredded the German U-boats were definitely more stealthy.

I don't think I made myself clear ALBERICH WAS ONLY FITTED TO ONE (1) U-BOAT AND THAT WAS A TYPE XXIII.

Can I ask where you get the information that German electric engines were quieter that anyone else's because it isn't as far as I am aware either, true or logical.

 

[Glider]

Please give reference of this Renrich because hearing about this is definitely a first for me. Change in pressure how ?

According to all the accounts I've read the Schnorchel made things a whole lot better for the crew, constantly supplying fresh air throughtout the boat, removing any bad odor build ups.

This was a very common problem with U Boats using the Schnorchel. If the seas were high or the boat trimmed too low, water would get in the Schnorchel intake, baffles would block the air to stop water getting into the engines and the engines would literally suck the air out of the inside of the boat.

Eardrums could burst in bad cases, engine fumes could be sent into the boat instead of outside, very very nasty.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Adler,

Just remember who started throwing the mud.

What are we in Kindergarden now? "He started it!".....

I dont give a **** who started it. We are sick and tired of threads turning into flame fests because people want to act like children!

 

[Soren]

LoL Adler! No we are not, but starting by saying someone biased in your first post is to provoke for no reason. This isn't about "He started it!" its about purposely wanting to start an argument for no reason at all.

 

[Soren]

This was a very common problem with U Boats using the Schnorchel. If the seas were high or the boat trimmed too low, water would get in the Schnorchel intake, baffles would block the air to stop water getting into the engines and the engines would literally suck the air out of the inside of the boat.

Eardrums could burst in bad cases, engine fumes could be sent into the boat instead of outside, very very nasty.

Source for this ?

And I've never ever heard of crew having their earsdrums burst, please provide reference for this.

 

[Soren]

I don't think I made myself clear ALBERICH WAS ONLY FITTED TO ONE (1) U-BOAT AND THAT WAS A TYPE XXIII.

You couldn't be more wrong Glider. Ever heard of the Schwarzer Panther ?

Can I ask where you get the information that German electric engines were quieter that anyone else's because it isn't as far as I am aware either, true or logical.

German subs had special small electric engines for silent running only, these were allot quieter than normal electric engines.

The Type XXI featured two of these, the type SSW GV232/28.