WWII submarines...which was the better one?

[Glider]

Soren
I have read a number of books on this subject and own more than a few. It is a subject I know something about and your not hearing of the problems of water getting into the air intakes of the Schnorchel tells me more than anything, that you don't have any background or listen to a logical explanation as to how it happens.
Also you haven't mentioned the main advantage that the Germans had over all other navies, namely that they could dive a lot deeper than any other navy. Almost twice the depth of most submarines.
If you had anything like the knowledge your postings imply, it would have been the first thing that you would have raised.

I strongly reccomend that you read Iron Coffins written by Herbert A Werner ISBN no 0-304-35330-2. He served in U-Boats from 1941 to the end of the war. All the points I have raised are covered in one way or another and its an insight into the battle, the people and how they lived and died.

Re Electric engines for silent running All submarines had engines for silent running.

Alberich was only fitted to one U-Boat that is a fact plain and simple.

 

[renrich]

Soren, My books are mainly packed but I believe that Glider answered as to reference about changes of pressure in the boat. I have read"Iron Coffins" and probably have it in my packed library. If you think about it the snorkel was mainly a device that allowed the boat to travel submerged using the diesel engines with only the intake for outside air with an automatic valve which would close if water came into the intake exposed above the surface. In any kind of a sea the valve would have to close often and then the diesels would suck air from inside the boat and, I think, expel exhaust fumes into the boat. Everything I have read about the U-boats, snorkel or not, indicated the conditions were pretty grim. In the Atlantic, cold, wet, dirty, bad food after a few weeks, crowded and of course the dangers of war. When you think about it, quite a testimony to the German submariners that they hung in there and did as well as they did. Comparatively our guys in the fleet boats were in the lap of luxury. Supposedly they had the best food in the USN although I doubt that we would consider their lot as cushy by today's standards.

 

[AL Schlageter]

German subs had special small electric engines for silent running only, these were allot quieter than normal electric engines.

The Type XXI featured two of these, the type SSW GV232/28.

I can't find these SSW GV232/28 motors mounted in the Type VII.

As to firepower, well German torpedoes were allot more reliable and weren't prone to failure as the US torpedoes were.

I think you need to read this article Soren.

The Norwegian Operation and the Torpedo Crisis

One of the less popular stories about the elite German U-Bootwaffe is the torpedo crisis of late 1939 -- early 1940. Although this was the period during which some of the most outstanding U-boat successes were scored, it was full of bitter disappointments and equally resounding misses as well.

uboat.net - Articles

Schnorchel Problems

There were several problems with the Schnorchels; first it turned the attacking/patrolling U-boat into a slow (6 knots was the max speed for the VII and IX types, otherwise the air mast would break off) and almost deaf weapon. Second were the various disposal problems associated with the permanently submerged boat, garbage had to be stored internally and further fouled up the boat. Third was the problem with the initial schnorchel masts that they tended to close up and thus the diesels, being starved of air from above, sucked all available air from the boat itself and causing extremely harmful ear pains and sometimes even damaged ear drums.

uboat.net - Technical pages

Is uboat.net a reliable source Soren?

Now the Type XXI was the most advanced sub in the world at the time but with only 10 boats operational at wars end. Best to leave the Type XXI out of the discussion and discuss only the Type VIIs and IXs.

 

[Soren]

Glider,

Make stuff up about me if you like, I really don't care cause anyone can go see that I have have made it clear many times that the German subs could dive allot deeper, read many of the other posts I have made on German subs and you'll see. I remember discussing the Gato classes low maximum depth vs the 300+ m maximum depth of some German subs. Besides I remember Syscom3 claiming it to be no advantage at all.

Are we clear Glider ??

About the Scnorchel, no I have never heard of ear drums being burst, I have to the contrary read that life was made allot more pleasant aboard the boats. Ofcourse the engine sucking in water and creating a vacuum inside the boat makes sense, which could be painful (Heck some people even find flying painful for their ears), but actually bursting eardrums, no. And besides this was a problem only suffered early on, later Schnorchels had this problem virtually eliminated.

Renrich,

You have a completely wrong picture about the inviroment in which the KM U-boat crews lived. Please read the following:
uboat.net - The Men - Foodstuffs

 

[Soren]

AL,

Yes, Uboat.net is a very reliable source! Still no'one have come forth with evidence of the Schnorchel ever having burst anyones eardrums.

Also why discuss the early German torps of 39 - 40 ???

 

[AL Schlageter]

Also why discuss the early German torps of 39 - 40 ???

Why discuss early war American torpedoes?

Early war, is early war whether it is 39/40 for the Germans or 42/43 for the Americans.

Did you actually read the article?

In December 1942, well into the war, a new, improved magnetic pistol was introduced which also functioned on contact. It proved very efficient. Until then, writes Dönitz, "the effectiveness of our torpedoes was no greater than it had been during the First World War"

 

[Glider]

Please give reference of this Renrich because hearing about this is definitely a first for me. Change in pressure how ?

According to all the accounts I've read the Schnorchel made things a whole lot better for the crew, constantly supplying fresh air throughtout the boat, removing any bad odor build ups.

Soren
Remember this posting? All the evidence and I do mean ALL the envidence including U-Boat net, points to the problems with sucking air from the inside of the boat.
You mention all the accounts you have read made things a lot better for the crew. Can we ask you to name ANY of them?

Diving ability of the U Boat. You say you have mentioned it many times, can I ask where you have mentioned it at ANY time in this thread.

There is still one other area where the Germans had a clear advantage which hasn't been mentioned in this thread, I am waiting to see if you know it.

I suggest you spend some time and read up on the topic and you might find the item I am waiting for you to raise

 

[Soren]

Glider,

If you want to play the game of "You don't knwo what you're talking about" ?fine by me, we can do that;

Glider, how come you weren't aware of German subs having air-search radar despite this being some of the very basic things to know if you ever had any serious interest on the subject ??

Glider, how come you didn't knwo that German U-boats had surface search radar ? The FuMO 83 being in widespread use.

Glider, how come you weren't aware of German subs having gunnery radar ? Also pretty basic.

Glider, how come you had never before heard of Alberich anti sonar coatings and somehow emiditiately after realizing this came to the conclusion that only ONE U-boat ever featured this ? - Despite that in reality several actual featured this coating, incl. the very famous Schwarzer Panther, a Type VIIC boat.

Shall we go on ???

And no before yesterday I hadn't heard about the pressure problems caused by the early Schnorchels, I had heard of engines cutting out because of water clotting up the schnorchel in high seas, thats it. Maybe thats because the books I've read on the subject mostly were about the crews perspective and about how much better the living aboard the boat had become.

And as to why I didn't mention the higher maximum depth of the German boat in this thread, well honestly I didn't even think of it, maybe because its a very well known advantage or because of the countles other times I've brought it up.

As to any other advantage of German U-boats than the ones I've already mentioned, which in your opinion is a very easy one to find, well I've already mentioned:

Non-tracable torpedoes. A very big advantage. (One you again seemed to not know about)

Zeiss optics. Pretty big advantage as-well for accurate range estimation while submerged when sonar radar is hazzardous to use.

Accoustic homing torpedoes. A big advantage as-well as it made figting escorts a whole lot easier.

Schnorchel. Very big advantage again, allowing the boat to stay submerged while travelling long distances, supplying fresh air throughout the boat, and making it harder to spot for aircraft.

You brought up the deeper maximum depth, which is true, but besides these I can't really think of any other real advantages, and this might very well be because I don't know enough about US boats to know what they lacked compared to German U-boats other than what I mentioned above. Sonar decoys perhaps ?

 

[AVRoe]

Do torpedoes play a large part in Submarine Warfair ? If they do then the japs had the advantage. Japan
Ship Class Used On Submarines
Date Of Design 1943
Date In Service 1944
Weight 3,814 lbs. (1,730 kg)
Overall Length 354 in (9.000 m)
Explosive Charge 1,213 lbs. (550 kg) Type 97
Range / Speed 6,000 yards (5,500 m) / 49-51 knots
8,200 yards (7,500 m) / 45-47 knots
Power Kerosene-oxygen wet-heater
Notes: A slightly improved version, trading a shorter range for a much larger explosive charge. As per the Type 93, later versions had a more pointed head, giving a similar two knot increase in speed, as shown in the table above.
Germany Homing Torpedoes 53.3 cm (21") G7e T4, T5, T10 and T11
Ship Class Used On Submarines
Date Of Design about 1940
Date In Service 1943
Weight T4: 3,080 lbs. (1,937 kg)
T5, T5a and T5b: N/A
T10: 3,571 lbs. (1,620 kg)
T11: N/A
Overall Length 23 ft. 7 in. (7.186 m)
Explosive Charge 440 lbs. (200 kg) Hexanite
Range / Speed T4: 8,200 yards (7,500 m) / 20 knots
T5: 6,230 yards (5,700 m) / 24-25 knots
T5a and T5b: 8,750 yards (8,000 m) / 22 knots
T10: 5,470 yards (5,000 m) / 30 knots
T11: 6,230 yards (5,700 m) / 24-25 knots
Power Lead-acid batteries
America Submarines
Date Of Design 1941
Date In Service 1943
Weight 720 lbs. (327 kg)
Overall Length 7 ft 6 in (2.286 m)
Explosive Charge 95 lbs. (43 kg) Torpex
Range / Speed 5,000 yards (4,570 m) / 12 knots
Power Battery
Notes: A variation of the airborne Mark 24 adapted for submarine use. It was a passive homer intended for self-defense against ASW escorts. Used only against the Japanese. A larger version, the Mark 27 Mod 4, was capable of 15.9 knots and was in service from 1946 to 1960.

America 21" (53.3 cm) Mark 18
Ship Class Used On Submarines
Date Of Design 1943
Date In Service 1944
Weight 3,154 lbs. (1,431 kg)
Overall Length 20 ft 5 in (6.223 m)
Explosive Charge 575 lbs. (261 kg) Torpex
Range / Speed 4,000 yards (3,650 m) / 29 knots
Power Electric-Battery
Notes: The Westinghouse version of the captured German G7e. Had the advantage of being trackless and only requiring about 70% of the labor needed to build a wet-heater torpedo, but its poor performance and design flaws led to it being discarded in 1950 in favor of the Mark 14 and Mark 16. Until new guide studs were placed in the tubes, the Mark 18 was susceptible to damage upon launch because it accelerated much faster than did the conventional steam-powered torpedoes. By the end of the war, the Mark 18 made up 65 percent of all torpeodes fired by submarines.

 

[Soren]

Explosive charge in all German torpedoes was 280 kg of Hexanite, the T5 ZaunKönigs contained 6 kg less at 274 kg. All of the G7e type torpedoes were trackless, T2, T3, T4, T5, T5b T11.

 

[plan_D]

Should I assume that British submarines and torpedoes were poor pieces of equipment?

 

[AVRoe]

Sorry British torpedoes 21" (53.3 cm) Mark VIII and VIII**
Ship Class Used On All Submarines from the "O" Class on and MTBs
Date Of Design About 1925
Date In Service 1927
Weight 3,452 lbs. (1,566 kg)
Overall Length 21 ft 7 in (6.579 m)
Negative Buoyancy 804 lbs. (365 kg)
Explosive Charge Mark VIII
750 lbs. (340 kg) TNT
Mark VIII**
Originally: 722 lbs. (327 kg) TNT
Later: 805 lbs. (365 kg) Torpex

Range / Speed Mark VIII
5,000 yards (4,570 m) / 40 knots
Mark VIII**
5,000 yards (4,570 m) / 45.5 knots
7,000 yards (6,400 m) / 41 knots

Power Burner-cycle, 322 hp @ 45 knots
Notes: The Mark VIII was the first burner-cycle torpedo in service. The principal World War II version was the Mark VIII** and this torpedo was used far more than any other British torpedo during the war. 3,732 were fired by September 1944, 56.4% of the total. This torpedo was still in use in British ships as late as 1983 and is probably still used today in other navies.

 

[AVRoe]

Do torpedoes make the Submarines better ?

 

[Soren]

They add to their firepower, so yes.

PS: Plan_D is right, we completely forgot about the British subs!

 

[plan_D]

I'm right on submarines ... freakin' hell, I don't have a clue 'bout World War II submarines. I know that the British had some success in the Med with submarines.

 

[AVRoe]

To me it´s the sub thats important,speed,dive depth ect. So i think the German U-boats win hands down.

 

[Lucky13]

True chaps....what about the British, Italian and Japanese? I don't know if the Russians or French had much to write home about...

 

[Soren]

I'm right on submarines ... freakin' hell, I don't have a clue 'bout World War II submarines. I know that the British had some success in the Med with submarines.

You were very right to remind us that British subs have been avoided completely in this topic, which isn't really fair cause the British were no slouches at building subs.

 

[AVRoe]

Try this site *British Submarines of World War Two - A History for british subs

 

[Glider]

Glider,

If you want to play the game of "You don't knwo what you're talking about" ?fine by me, we can do that;

Glider, how come you weren't aware of German subs having air-search radar despite this being some of the very basic things to know if you ever had any serious interest on the subject ??

It because the Germans didn't have any active air search radar until the war was almost over late 1944 on and as mentioned there must be question marks over there effectiveness due to the losses caused by air attack.
They did have passive warning systems dont mix the two up, but these were normally obsolete almost as soon as they started to be deployed.

Glider, how come you didn't knwo that German U-boats had surface search radar ? The FuMO 83 being in widespread use.

As far as I can tell the FuMO 83 wasn't issued at all. I did ask for your source but no reply was given. U Boat.net certainly doesn't say it was deployed and even had a question mark over the antenna. It doesn't appear in any list of radars that I can find and I have tried to look at its development. An FuMO81 was fitted on Heavy Cruisers and the Antenna was similar to that described in U Boat Net but I have yet to find any examples or photos of the 83 being fitted to a submarine.

Glider, how come you weren't aware of German subs having gunnery radar ? Also pretty basic.

This was new to me and a surprise as any sub on a pitching rolling boat trying to outgun anything at 8km is a joke. Even U Boat net mentioned that there was no record of its success.

Glider, how come you had never before heard of Alberich anti sonar coatings and somehow emiditiately after realizing this came to the conclusion that only ONE U-boat ever featured this ? - Despite that in reality several actual featured this coating, incl. the very famous Schwarzer Panther, a Type VIIC boat.

This was new to me and I did what you would expect anyone to do and that was to look into it. I found a source and that said that only 1 boat had been equipped. I have continued to look into it and it now seems that a maximum of 10 (ten) boats were so equipped. Hardly the widespread service you would expect from such a success story (according to your postings) Literally hundreds of boats were built after the Schwarzer Panther, so can I ask why only another 8 or 9 were equipped if it was such a good idea? Or can you tell me what the correct number was, if 10 is incorrect?

Your new items to me were mainly because they either didn't enter service, entered service so late that the war was over, or were in such small numbers as to be negligable in their effect.