Best Aircraft in many different roles

[lesofprimus]

Yes it is....

 

[rebel8303]

I have never been in a war I have never been wounded but I'm not sure if I would get in that thing to go to the medical center...
Just think of the landing...

 

[Lightning Guy]

Fast ambulances would be used in relatively secure areas so armor wasn't that crucial. Flights would not be at ultra-high altitudes so heat wouldn't be a crucial problem either. Also, the people being moved in these need serious medical attention ASAP. That being said, the choice of a quick, life-saving trip wins out over comfort. Both 165-gallon and 310-gallon tanks were modified for the purpose. The 310-gallon tanks could cramp two stretchers each.

I've seen a picture where the pods were put to a different use. A USMC camera man hitched a ride in one so he could get some footage of Corsairs making napalm runs.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and yes we are rather passionate about each of our favourite planes, the lancaster of course being the best aircraft in all different roles.............

 

[Gemhorse]

Haven't we had this haggle before, between the Mossie vs Lightning ??...
- If we compute in the factor that the Mossie was also much cheaper to build, easier to repair and was built to either Bomber, Fighter and PR in it's basic form, and also it's firepower left the P-38 wanting, [I don't recall P-38's even carrying rockets, and if they did, it must've been late in the War, like their NF version], the Mossies did hold their own surprisingly well against more agile fighters...[y'know, win some, lose some, type of thing...] they had to combat, especially the Strike Wings, when attacked...

So naturally, I vote the Mosquito...

Also, I give credit to the Fw-190A's, they too were a special breed.....

Finally, both these aircraft were so good, they just have to build some more these days, Mossies from NZ, and Flugwerk in Germany has started the Fw-190A kitsets.......

 

[Lightning Guy]

P-38s carried rockets in a number of different installations. 10, 12, and 14 rockets were tried at different points in the war. The P-38 could be loaded out with as many as 10 5in rockets and still carry two 1,600lb bombs. And the P-38 also certainly did more than hold its own in the air. For a number of different roles, the P-38 was the aircraft.

 

[Gemhorse]

But they still didn't have the heavier firepower, whether 4x cannon, 4x mgs, nor like the Mk.XVIII....etc. etc. etc......

 

[The Jug Rules!]

and yes we are rather passionate about each of our favourite planes, the lancaster of course being the best aircraft in all different roles.............

Tell that to the Ju-88!

 

[cheddar cheese]

and was built to either Bomber, Fighter and PR in it's basic form

But doesnt the fact that the P-38 was designed purely as a fighter, yet was able to do more differing roles than the Mossie at least as well and in a lot of areas better make it the better aircraft? I think it does...

 

[rebel8303]

For me the most versatile aircraft is the Fw 190A.
It could everything and it could do it pretty well. And without any bombload when returning from missions it could defend itself very well. That's all I need of a multirole aircraft of that era. As far for the mossie and the lightning is concerned there is another post about these and I prefer the lightning ignoring the multirole capabilities of each aircraft.

 

[cheddar cheese]

The 190A was versatile but I dont really think it compares to the Ju-88, Mossie or indeed, the P-38.

 

[Lightning Guy]

The -190 lacked the range to have the true strategic versatility of those other aircraft.

The P-38 was designed to best the firepower of the Mossie. Design specs were drawn up for a P-38 mounting a 75mm gun and two .50cals. Others were modified (and flown) with 2 x 20mm and 4 x .50cal or 8 x .50cal all concentrated in the nose.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Woah 8 x .50cal...

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

But doesnt the fact that the P-38 was designed purely as a fighter, yet was able to do more differing roles than the Mossie at least as well and in a lot of areas better make it the better aircraft? I think it does...

i'm interested to hear in which areas the P-38 was better the mossie, the P-38 was the better fighter and ......err... well.....

 

[cheddar cheese]

Lightning Guy can answer this one, ive had enough of telling the lanc the facts he wont admit are true...

Im creating a rather large dossier on the P-38, if the lanc reads it I think his views will be dramatically changed...

 

[Gemhorse]

Yeah, the P-38 was a great fighter and could carry some ordinance, but it's general firepower was it's .50's and 1 x 20mm...Futhermore, it was essentially a single-seater, whereas the Mossie was always a two-seater. Therefore, 2x sets of eyes, the range of tasks performed were greater, it's main fighter variant carried 4x .303 4x 20mm, and it's ordinance-carrying ability was impressive...

Lets not forget it started-out as a high-speed UN-armed bomber, and also PR, which was pretty radical at that stage of the War...and once it took on the NF role, it continued that right through the War, and after, and in other Foreign Air Forces...
Futhermore, even the US asked for them and had some in service [also Beaufighters too], so they were quite an acceptable aircraft all round....Which is my point exactly....
To my knowledge, only the Aussies had some P-38's, [on loan] for PR work in the Pacific, no other Air Force used them....

Mosquitos were a thorn in the arse of the Germans from Day One, right-through....It's 'clobberring-power' in the Coastal Command Strike Forces, in concert with the Beaufighters was legendary....Their work with Bomber Command was exemplary, from PR, Light Night Strike Force and Pathfinders, really sewing-together Bomber Commands' overall efforts...

The PTO was the P-38's ball-park, and it really excelled there....It's abit much to ask of the Mossie, being wooden, to handle the tropic climate there, although they WERE there too, but metal aircraft had their problems there also, mostly for the groundcrews...

They were both fine aircraft, respectively, but I'll argue ad finitem for Mossies, essentially because of their uniqueness [wooden] and the timing of Service, which I believe contributed greatly to the Allied success, particuarly in the ETO.....Lucky for the Axis the Hornet entered service after the War, they would've given German jets a run for their money....

 

[Lightning Guy]

The Chinese also used P-38s

The P-38 was easily the better fighter. No contest there. The P-38 was close to matching the P-38 in bombing capability, and was far better as a dive-bomber (neither task was even considered when the P-38 was being designed). It was also probably the equal of the Mossie in the PR roll. It could match range, speed, and altitue pretty evenly and carried a superior assortment of cameras. All of that was a bonus for the P-38 which was never considered for any of these roles initially.

And then there is the theatre versatility. The P-38 served in the ETO, PTO, MTO, Aleutians, CBI, flew shuttle missions into and out of Russia, and patrolled the Carribbean. The Mossie flew in the ETO and . . .

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

The P-38 was close to matching the P-38 in bombing capability

i'll assume you mean "the P-38 was close to matching the mosquito in bombing capability" if that's the case, i fail to see how, i fail to class it as a good bomber when it could carry 3,200lbs the distance of 450miles...........

It was also probably the equal of the Mossie in the PR roll

makes you wonder why the americans bought them for that role then when they already had P-38s doing it, the mind boggles.............

All of that was a bonus for the P-38 which was never considered for any of these roles initially.

it's equally a bonus for the mossie as it was never considdered as anything else other than a bomber during the design stages..............

 

[cheddar cheese]

Droopsnoots/Pathfinders

One of the more interesting experiments performed on the P-38 was the idea of using one to serve as a leader for a level bombing raid. This special P-38 would not carry machine guns in the nose, but would contain a bombsite for a bombardier instead. The frontal nose section was replaced with a small glass window similar to that on the B-17. This lead P-38 would lead a large flight of P-38s to a specified target. The bomb run would be the same as used by the heavy bombers. The lead P-38s bombardier would track the target using the bombsite (or radar in the Pathfinder version) and would signal all P-38s to drop their loads. Once the bombs were delivered, the P-38s could fight their way back home as fighters.

The Droop Snoot/Pathfinder version of the P-38 was originated in mid-1943. Colonel Cass Hough and Col. Don Ostrander came up with this idea. The P-38 had the ability to carry similar loads to a B-17, so this idea was very promising. The daylight bombing raids during that time were suffering irreplaceable losses. Each bomber that failed to return to base meant roughly ten men were lost to the war effort (either KIA or captured by the Germans). Each member of a bomber crew underwent extensive training, and these losses were taxing the bombing effort because crews were being lost faster than replacements could be trained. Hough and Ostrander felt that the P-38 would be able to assist the bombing effort in Germany, and would put fewer men in danger. They felt that the P-38 would be successful because it could carry a large bomb load for an aircraft its size, and was about 100 mph faster. The speed in which the raids would be carried out would also allow the P-38s to be under fire for less amounts of time. Furthermore, once the bombs were dropped, the rest of the P-38s were normal fighters, and would be able to fight their way back home much easier than a heavy bomber. Both men felt it was a win/win situation.

The Droop Snoot design was based around the Norden bombsite used by all the heavy bombers during the war. The nose section was replaced with a glass window. Extra armor was added to the sides of the nose section. Extra ballast was required to balance the aircraft to address the extra weight in the nose. In fact, once the design was finished, only minimal performance loss was detected. Normal armament configuration consisted of one 2,000 lb. bomb, and one 310-gallon drop tank. The Pathfinder version contained radar instead of the optical bombsite. General Doolittle approved this new P-38 version, and fifteen total were built.

The Droop Snoot first saw service on April 19, 1944. The first mission was to attack the Florennes airfield in Belgium. Bad weather halted this mission, and a different mission was scheduled for later in the day. Lt. Col. Harold Rau led 38 P-38s to Gutersloh, Germany. The formation of P-38s managed to drop 26,000 lbs. of bombs in a concentrated area with good observable results. Droop Snoots and Pathfinders were successfully used by the 8th, 9th, and 15th air forces.

In theory this version of the P-38 seemed to be an idea of limitless utilization. The idea of using fighters to deliver significant amounts of ordinance in saturation bombing was tremendous. They would be able to drop their loads, and then act as fighters on the way back home. They would be able to destroy ground targets, and possibly destroy significant numbers of Luftwaffe aircraft and pilots. However, in practice, the Droop Snoot/Pathfinder variations saw only limited action. The idea was never really taken seriously by Gen. Doolittle and his staff. The romantic idea of heavy bombers being able to carry out the daylight bombing practice was prevalent in the minds of the American leaders. Tremendous amounts of heavy bombers were being produced, and nobody wanted to change that. Also, many of these people were preaching the idea of heavy bombers to such an extent, they would not allow themselves to go back on their ideas. After all, the B-17 was the symbol of the Allied effort in the ETO. One very realistic problem encountered by the P-38s was questions about the range. A B-17 would not have to sacrifice range to carry a full load. Even though a P-38 was capable of carrying two 2,000 lb. bombs, it would have to operate on a limited range. P-38s normally carried one 2,000 lb. bomb, and one 310-gallon drop tank. Still, it would not have the range similar to a B-17 or B-24. After the invasion of Normandy in June 1944, the P-38s would have been able to operate out of the liberated areas of France, which would have been very favorable to their range problems. However, at this point in the war, B-17s and B-24 were being produced in large numbers, crews were readily available, and the P-51 Mustang was able to escort bombers deep into Germany. The P-38 was already being phased out in Europe. Even though the operational records do not show the Droop Snoot/Pathfinder versions of the P-38 to be significant, it still showed the P-38 to be used in almost any role imaginable. No other fighter had this ability at this stage in the war.

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Divebomber

The utilization of the P-38 as a dive-bomber found its origins in North Africa in 1943. One of the problems in the MTO at this point was a fleet of flak barges (Siebel Ferries), which were designed for Hitler's Operation Sea Lion. They posed a constant threat to bombers and fighters. In addition to their elusiveness, they also were escorting the sea blockade from Tunis to Bizerte, and were able to re-supply Rommell's desert army. The 12th Air Force tried to level bomb the barges, but they were too nimble to hit. Low-level bombing missions by B-25s were simply too dangerous. Air Chief Marshall Sir Author Tedder requested Lt. Col. Ralph Garman to take care of the problem.

The 27th Fighter Squadron of the 82nd Fighter Group commonly used skip-bombing techniques. Major Weltman described bombing missions as, "We tried skip-bombing on the Siebel Ferries, but I'll tell you that that was no damn fun. Even with P-38s coming in from at least three different directions at once, the Germans put up enough flak at us in the run-in to make life downright uncomfortable." Results from skip-bombing the barges forced the 82nd to refocus efforts on developing true dive-bombing techniques. The P-38 possessed dive capabilities equal to most others, therefore it built up tremendous diving speeds. Higher speeds resulted in longer recovery time from the dive. Pilots would rarely dive when they were starting at 12,000 feet and under, and would not dive when starting higher than 20,000 feet because of compressibility problems. In a short time, the P-38 G was one of the finest dive-bombing platforms during the war. It could come in and deliver the bombs, but could take immediate evasive actions and could fight like a true fighter. Under Weltman's leadership, the German flak barges would begin to take more and more losses, which caused the of the morale of the American pilots to soar.

The good results from the dive-bombing missions against the Siebel Ferries caused Major Weltman to think about using the P-38 as a maritime raider. Weltman would eventually lead a flight of P-38s of the 1st Fighter Group on April 13, 1943. The plan was for each P-38 to skip-bomb the cruiser Gorizia with their 1,000 lb. bombs. The cruiser was severely damaged, and many smaller vessels were also hit. No P-38s were lost in this mission. Once initial reservations about diving the P-38 were overcome, they would soon excel in dive-bombing many types of targets and were generally successful.

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Float Plane

One of the most unique aircraft designs during the war was with P-38 floatplane. It never came to fruition as an operational aircraft, and never was tested. This design called for a P-38 to be fit onto large floats while its regular landing gear was retracted. These floats would then be filled with fuel allowing the aircraft to be ferried across the pacific. Early in the war, the American aircraft presence in the Pacific was woefully inadequate. Bases still were using outdated aircraft such as the Brewster Buffalo, which were no match against Japanese fighters. There were heavy bombers such as the B-17, but they were not effective against moving shipping targets in the ocean. Though the Battle of Midway was a decisive victory, the aircraft being used were mismatched. The victory would be attributed to knowledge of Japanese codes, perfect timing, courage of the pilots, and plain luck. General Arnold knew that the American forces needed a boost in available, modern aircraft to fight the Japanese. By December 1942, P-38s were being used in operations in Buna and other locations in the southwest Pacific.

As with problems getting the aircraft to the field of battle in Europe, many were questioning how to get adequate numbers of aircraft to bases in the Pacific. The floatplane design in theory would allow P-38s to be able to fly extreme distances until it needed to refuel. This idea also called for the P-38s to make landings in protected waterways, where they would be refueled and resume their flight to their new base of operations. Once the P-38 was within range of the home base, explosive charges would remove the floats, and the aircraft would then land normally. One problem that needed to be addressed was the tail section. The tail would pose problems during takeoff and landing on the water. One way to address this problem was to raise the entire tail section. Wind tunnel tests revealed minimal performance loss. However, since the Battle of Midway put the Japanese on the defensive, it would not be dangerous to ship the new P-38s to Australia, where they would be ferried to their bases of operations. This idea never got off the drawing board, but a P-38 was tested with a raised tail. Kelly Johnson was interested to see how it would be affected by compressibility. No substantial results were obtained, and no further raised tailed P-38s were tested.

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Other Experiments

Many experiments were carried out on the P-38. Some of these never got off the drawing board, but many were actually tested. The overall design of the P-38 allowed for tremendous amounts of flexibility. This aircraft was originally designed in the late 1930s, and by the time it went into operational status, the original mission it was designed for was not going to be the main focus. Originally, the P-38 would be an interceptor. After extensive range improvements, the P-38 would be the only early long-range bomber escort. It was quickly adapted to an attack role, and would be converted to a reconnaissance aircraft as well. The adaptability of the P-38 aircraft exceeded the original expectations of the designers, and was perhaps the most adaptable aircraft during the war.

One of the more obscure experiments or designs of the P-38 was the glider version. One P-38 was equipped with a glider towing system. It would be able to tow up two gliders at one time. In early 1942, this experiment was actually tried. The test ended up in failure, and resulted in a damaged P-38. What happened is not accurately known, but two possibilities could account for the failure. One possibility was that the glider dug into the ground during takeoff, thus snapping the tail section and front landing gear of the P-38. The second possibility was that after takeoff, the glider release failed and the pilot had to land the aircraft with the glider in tow. No further glider testing was carried out.

The ability for land forces or naval ships to lay smoke screens would allow them to maneuver without being under accurate fire. One such P-38 was equipped with smoke canisters for this role. Tests were carried out at various altitudes, and were very successful. No instances of a smoke layer P-38 used in combat are known. For ground forces, the P-38 was more effective in laying down fire upon the enemy, not necessarily concealing force movements. Also, naval combat was normally out of range of land-based aircraft, and naval aircraft and ships were responsible for laying smoke screens.

The torpedo bombers in World War II were normally large and slow. Images of the Battle of Midway show the sacrifices of the American torpedo pilots made in desperate attempts to launch their torpedoes against Japanese aircraft carriers. Had the P-38 been carrier based, it would have been the finest torpedo bomber of the war. One P-38 F was configured to carry torpedoes and was successfully tested. Both external fuel tank pylons were configured to each carry a torpedo. Most bombers were only able to carry one torpedo, and were slow and extremely vulnerable. The P-38 that was tested had no problems delivering the dummy torpedoes, and showed only a 16.7% speed loss (300 mph top speed). Equipped with two torpedoes, the maximum range was 1,000 miles. If the P-38 was equipped with one torpedo and one 310-gallon fuel tank, the range was increased to 2,160 miles. With a single drop tank, the speed loss was reduced to 12.6%. The test flight was described as very stable, and jumped slightly when the torpedoes were released. The tests were extremely successful, and the P-38 would be a first class torpedo bomber. However, all these tests were after the Battle of Midway, and the emphasis was beginning to shift away from torpedo bombers in favor of dive-bombers. Also, the P-38 was land based, and the range options were limited when compared to a torpedo bomber on an aircraft carrier which could attack targets not available to land based aircraft. The P-38 never made a combat torpedo attack.



These miscellaneous examples of creative experimentation of the P-38 all proved to be successful. The only limiting factor was usually the range and practicality of the test. In the torpedo experiment, the only negatives were the range problems and the shift in emphasis due to the Japanese being on the defensive for the first time during the war. The other examples were successful, but not really a necessity. The P-38 was usually at its finest when it was using it firepower to attack enemy targets and aircraft. Having a P-38 that could lay smoke, or tow gliders was not as effective as a fully loaded P-38 escorting C-47s towing gliders or keeping enemy troops pinned down as allied forces finished the job. The most common characteristic in most of the experiments made upon the P-38 was simply that the P-38 was successful. A designer may have envisioned a role in which the P-38 could be adapted to, and in almost all instances, the P-38 would be able to perform that role with a high degree of success. This is only part of the reason why the P-38 was the most versatile and important aircraft in the war.

Please take the time to read that lanc...

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

wow and i thought i showd Bias in my 5 favourite aircraft list, that's taking the piss

the ability to convert the P-38 from a fighter to a lead bombing aircraft, a little useless in the range department, but i mean, can you imagine a mosquito carrying a 5,000lb payload 1,000 miles+ then being able to fight it's way back, how ridiculous would that be............

yes, the P-38 was proberly the better dive-bomber

anyone could design a float plane version of almost any plane, the fact was it was just a idea, exactily the same thing could have been done for the mossie............

any plane could lay a smoke screen if it was so fitted, hell maybe even the mossie could..........

Torpedoes were expensive, complex, difficult to use and you needed allot of training to use them, rockets however were cheap, easy to use, and require very little training to use, an 8 rocket salvo was also thought to pack the same punch a broadside from a battleship, we use the rocket armed mossies to great effect, we had torpedo bombers to torpedo bomb, didn't see the need to convert the mossie for it.................