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syscom3 said:Which Spit had the fastest climb rate to 33,000 ft?
Erich said:Für Bodenplatte:
........
57 MIA
86 KIA
70 POW
21 WIA
102 pilots came away ok
........
Major Helmut Wick during the Battle of Britain alone shot down 25 Spitfires.
This, during a time when the Germans had high losses operating over enemy territory, and still no Spitfire pilot shot down what you can call a significant number of Bf 109 E.
To make the long story short, you should have learned by now that if you claim the Spitfire to have been such a wonderfully flawless fighter -clearly superior to most German designs-, superior virtually throughout the entire war, such fact, by force, should have produced a vast number of British aces with numbers of kills that at least should scratch the records of the German aces.
Do you think the 1.8 ata K-4s would have had that much trouble dogfighting with any of the Mk XIVs?
Mr. Glider:
I do know how many Mk. VIIIs were made. I was referring to that particular model Mr. Jabberwocky pointed in his comment: a +25 lbs boost, the "Basta" modification of the Merlin engine.
He first failed to mention what was the strenght of a RAF squadron. But then he said a 20 aircraft squadron.
If only 2 squadrons were fitted with such variant, its contribution was insignificant.
Hop said:Major Helmut Wick during the Battle of Britain alone shot down 25 Spitfires.
Luftwaffe records credit him with 31 kills during the BoB:
16 Spitfires
14 Hurricanes
1 Curtis
This, during a time when the Germans had high losses operating over enemy territory, and still no Spitfire pilot shot down what you can call a significant number of Bf 109 E.
The problem is, this is during a time when the Luftwaffe were overclaiming like mad. In particular, they were overclaiming Spitfires.
Note Wick's claims, more Spitfires than Hurricanes, despite the fact the Hurricane served in far greater numbers, and suffered far greater losses.
The German version of Jagdwaffe kills in the BoB:
14 Curtiss
23 Defiants
715 Hurricanes
7 Moranes
1239 Spitfires
Actual RAF losses were about 900 single engined fighters (no Moranes or Curtiss types were operated at all). Of that 900, about 60% were Hurricanes, 40% Spitfires. Despite that, the Jagdwaffe claimed far, far more Spitfires than Hurricanes, which some have called "Spitfire snoberry". Bear in mind the 900 figure is for all losses on operations, which includes bomber's defensive fire, collisions etc.
Wick's 17 Spitfires are actually probably closer to 5, if he overclaimed by the same amount as other Luftwaffe pilots at the time.
To make the long story short, you should have learned by now that if you claim the Spitfire to have been such a wonderfully flawless fighter -clearly superior to most German designs-, superior virtually throughout the entire war, such fact, by force, should have produced a vast number of British aces with numbers of kills that at least should scratch the records of the German aces.
Allied aces operated for restricted tours, in a target poor enviroment, and under a system that didn't reward kills as much as the German system, or structure squadrons so that a single pilot made most of the kills, and the rest were there to protect him.
Stephen Bungay, The Most Dangerous Enemy:
""This was part of the Luftwaffe's emphasis on individual stardom and it had some negative aspects. At the margin, some of the most successful gave the impression that they were after their own glory rather than the success of the unit, and the view became widespread that some of them were building their scores at the expense of their protecting wingmen, the poor old 'Katschmareks'. Ulrich Steinhilper reports on such discussions in JG52 which increased in frequency as the battle continued:
The debates nearly always came back to the subject of battle honours and decorations, mostly prompted by the NCOs who felt more aggrieved than the officers. Why was it, they would ask so often, that the decorations are, in the main, only handed out to those with the highest scores? Wasn't it clear that it was those who were flying ahead and insisting on strong formation discipline around them who were also running up the highest personal scores - almost exactly matched by the losses from their own formations - losing one Katschmarek after another for another white stripe on the tail of their aircraft? And who was it who was suffering the most, they would ask. Of course, it was the NCOs who generally flew at the rear or on the flanks.
Those known to be plagued by a chronic desire to have a Knight's Cross and its various accoutrements (Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds) dangling around their necks were said to be suffering from "Halsweh" (a sore throat). Adolf Galland was one well known sufferer, and he used his position first as Gruppenkomandeur of III/JG26 then as Kommodore of the whole Geschwader to hand pick his wingmen.""
Do you think the 1.8 ata K-4s would have had that much trouble dogfighting with any of the Mk XIVs?
Yes. The 1.8 ata K4 would climb worse, turn worse, and have a poor armament for combat against fighters. It's only advantage over the Spitfire XIV would be a marginal dive acceleration advantage.
KraziKanuK said:My poor Udet, unlike you I never claim the Spit was the be all, end all of fighter a/c, like you do for the 109s.LOL, the *uber twins* are now triplets.
The only evasive action was by you because you wondered from the example given > Bodenplatte. That is the usual tactic by those of the *German is uber, all else is crap* ilk.
Not hard to have amassed large numbers of kills when the Germans only had 2 s/e fighter types, unlike the Brits who had to spread the kills among at least 6.
Btw, H Bar flew a Dora during Bodenplatte and had to keep throttling back as the 109G/Ks could not keep up.Should I also mention the 487th FS in P-51s which took off with full wing and fuselage fuel tanks during the attack and desimatted JG11, all at low level. The P-51 is said to be a 'dog' with a full fuel load. So much for your uber 109s.
Jabberwocky, pick up Bodenplatte by Monrho/Purz. The most detailed account of Jan 1 1945 yet. ISBN 1-902109-40-6
Just wanted to ask one thing here, are you saying that Germans over claimed more than the British or USA ever did ?
Hop said:Just wanted to ask one thing here, are you saying that Germans over claimed more than the British or USA ever did ?
No, all sides over claimed. They did it more over enemy territory, when they didn't have ground observers, and when there were large battles. The Luftwaffe spent most of the war fighting over their own airspace, so had more opportunity to check pilot's kill claims.
But in case like the BoB, and fighting over the sea, and deserts, the Luftwaffe overclaimed as much as anyone.
Udet said:I am going to have me some action here, finally. Things were getting quite cozy in here.
Udet said:Secondly, mr. Der Adler and his hilarious opinions. What makes you think only you can find others funny eh?
I CAN BECOME THE BIGGEST THORN IN YOUR ASS ON THIS FORUM
Udet said:Mr. KrazyKanuk:
Well, this might be the last time I waste my time in responding to you.
Now I am moving away from technical data sheets which appear to be the specialty of several guys here. Now the hardest of the facts: battle record.
Yours was an interesting evasive action: "they do not have to be aces..."
22 Bf 109 Gs and Ks? Not what you can call a fruitful harvest when one knows of the number of German fighters deployed for the operation.
But back in business wasting my time with you:
Possibly so, they do not have to be aces...the point is that wherever you look, whatever the period or phase of the war you pick, you name it: Battle of Britain, 1941, 1942, 1943, pre D-day 1944, post D-day 1944, the Bf 109 produced far more aces than any of its contemporary Spitfire ever came close to achieve during each period.
Major Helmut Wick during the Battle of Britain alone shot down 25 Spitfires. This, during a time when the Germans had high losses operating over enemy territory, and still no Spitfire pilot shot down what you can call a significant number of Bf 109 E.
"Johnnie" Johnson shot down 38 German planes within a period of 3 years.
So Mr. Crazy, differences are substantial as you might perceive.
To make the long story short, you should have learned by now that if you claim the Spitfire to have been such a wonderfully flawless fighter -clearly superior to most German designs-, superior virtually throughout the entire war, such fact, by force, should have produced a vast number of British aces with numbers of kills that at least should scratch the records of the German aces.
But no. Such aces do not exist. Noble Marmaduk (south africa)? If I recall correctly he never flew Spitfires, the fact is he got shot down and killed early in the war by a Bf 110 -another one of the planes the allies have portrayed as "doomed"-.
Where are the aces of fighter force that was in a state of war the entire duration of WWII -nearly 6 years-? Furthermore, where are those aces who flew, according to your words, a plane that virtually surpassed most -if not all- German designs?
Something must be very rotten around here.
The brunt of the fighter war over Europe in 1944-45 was carried out by the P-51s, P-47s and P-38s, the Jug more importantly.
Gnomey said:Adler "believe" is spelt wrong it should be believe not belive...
I will agree admins can be very annoying...