Best German fighter for the Eastern Front

delcyros · Apr 5, 2013

C'mon, that didn't usually happen even in temperate climates when in the field, much less the largely rural Soviet areas from which the Germans were operating. They were probably more concerned with digging latrines than special surfac preparations and a few extra knots of airspeed. Special maintenace was possible and maybe probable at an airfield near a logistic source of spare parts, but not far from manicured runways, aircraft shelters, and an aircraft wash rack. If they had water in Russia, it was probably for drinking, not for washing airplanes!

Aren´t You are over-exagerating here, Greg?
For the final 6 months of ww2, about the period when the La-7 entered service (operational trials in sept. 44 in one squadron at the Baltic with regular service starting in oct. 44), the Luftwaffe was operating very close to and at it´s logistical baseground, geographically. It wasn´t employed in Steppe airfields anymore but already fell back on the better prepared airfields in Eastern Prussia, eastern Germany, Czechia, Slovakia and Hungary. That doesn´t mean special surface treatment was regular, but I didn´t stated that, I made the point that it was possible and indeed this is evidenced by two accounts (I know of) from ground crews working at Fürstenwalde airfield in 1945.
Straked cowling was a replacement part for -G6, -G10 and -K4 and could have been installed in -G14, too. Bf-109K are not necessary to beat the Yak´s and La´s. The MW-50 boosted Bf-109G6 and -14 are just fine for this purpose in low and medium altitude ranges.
In low / medium altitude, these A/C enjoi a healthy performanc edge over Yak-9, Yak-3, La-5 and La-5FN and are still competetive with La-7.

stona · Apr 5, 2013

The finish and fit of late war German aircraft was poor. The RLM complained about it and there are several accounts from pilots who grumbled and moaned about it too.

The aircraft were checked thoroughly on delivery to the units and frequently faults were found.
This is after acceptance by the "BAL". Mutterings about sabotage were not uncommon at frontline units.

None of this precludes a unit or pilot taking special care of particular airframes but given the frantic operations late in the war and the short lifespan of the average airframe it would surely be an exception rather than the rule.

Cheers
Steve

davebender · Apr 5, 2013

What do you mean by "late war"?

The quality of most German made products took a nose dive when Allied ground forces started rampaging through industrial centers. Just as Soviet quality got even worse (if that was possible) when German ground forces captured or issolated pre-war industrial centers such as Kharkov and Leningrad. Nothing you can do about that. But in Germany's case the bottom didn't fall out of industrial production until 1945.

Juha · Apr 5, 2013

stona said:
There wasn't much left of the Jagdwaffe after "Bodenplatte"...

1300+ serviceable day fighters on 9 Apr 45, at least more than during the BoB.

Juha

Juha · Apr 5, 2013

stona said:
"Many","quite a few". What do we mean here?

I've already posted that only about one in four Bf 109s listed in January 1945 was a K. That was a total of about 300. If someone wants to dig up how many of those were serviceable and on which front they were deployed I wish them luck.

Very few units were equipped exclusively with the Bf 109 K but flew some amongst their other aircraft. Only four "Gruppen" were entirely converted to the Bf 109 K.

20.3.45 there seems to have been 12 Gruppen equipped with 109G-10, 9 with G-14 and 9 with K-4.

stona said:
Around 5,500 G-14s of various types were built but I doubt that a Soviet pilot would distinguish the early ones from a G-6.

No wonder because G-14 was basically G-6 with MW-50.

stona said:
Somewhere around 2,500 G-10s and 1,500 K-4s were built,though again I doubt that a Soviet pilot could tell the difference.They certainly could have had no clue which engine was fitted

Agree, it seems that many of German pilots flying them were unware were they were flying G-10 or K-4, much less were they fighting against Yak-9M or -9D

Jenisch · Apr 5, 2013

And how many night-fighters?

Juha · Apr 5, 2013

Jenisch said:
And how many night-fighters?

480

Juha

Jenisch · Apr 5, 2013

Christos military and intelligence corner: Eastern Front Aircraft Strength and Losses 1941-45

According to this link, the VVS had 8,078 single-seat fighters in January of '45. If the previous years are considerated, the Soviet numerical advantage is also abysmal. This is why I mentioned in the other thread that even in absence of the American long-range fighters, the Russians could still defeat a stronger LW in the East.

Note: I understand that quality was a problem for the VVS, but from 1942 onwards, the VVS learning curve grow steadily.

Jenisch · Apr 5, 2013

I still didn't read Stalingrad: The Air Battle: 1942-January 1943, by Bergstor. However, reading a review of the book, I confirmed my suspicious of the last post:

Drawing upon a wealth of German and Russian archival material and personal accounts, Bergstrom chronicles the momentous developments on the Eastern Front from early 1942 to January 1943, events that resulted in the destruction of the 6th Army at Stalingrad. Luftwaffe and Red Air Force units were key players in the sometimes titanic land battles waged during this time. Equipped with superior aircraft flown by combat-experienced crews using proven tactics, German fighter, bomber, ground-attack and recce units overwhelmed the opposition, lending valuable support to the Panzers while decimating their poorly-trained and -led VVS contemporaries operating a smorgasbord of biplane and monoplane designs. While Russian units were being re-equipped with more potent aircraft such as IL-2s, Pe-2s, Yak-1s, LaGG-3s, etc., they often lacked time to develop effective tactics before thrown into battle. Yet despite wholesale slaughter of VVS units, Germany, as Bergstorm relates in the book, couldn't hope to win the war of attrition Stalin was willing to wage. In time Luftwaffe bombers and fighters, their numbers dwindling, became fire-brigades, switched back and forth across fronts to provide needed - if temporary - strength to a threatened location or air support for a new offensive. Germany's transports were likewise called upon for tasks - such as the aerial resupply of Stalingrad - beyond their capabilities. In the end, quantity conquered quality.

GregP · Apr 5, 2013

Stupid post, so I removed it. Slap me, please.

Jenisch · Apr 5, 2013

GregP said:
Yeah I guess the superior Germans really did win that battle, huh?

I hope you didn't understand me incorrectly, Greg, because I agree with you.

GregP · Apr 6, 2013

Hi Jenisch, I was being sarcastic to the ones who still believe the Germans won the battles despite the fact that they were retreating and losing the war ... not to you ... peace and good feelings. I told myself not to be sarcastic and failed. Sorry, won't happen again.

The Soviet Union wasn't exactly a model of innovation or of command innovation, but they did basically stop the German advance and then push them back to Berlin. I'd say that despite any rumors to the contrary, the Soviet Union did a credible job in the lasy year and a half of the war.

Let's hope North Korea doesn't somehow drag everyone into another one.

Jenisch · Apr 6, 2013

GregP said:
I was being sarcastic to the ones who still believe the Germans won the battles despite the fact that they were retreating and losing the war

When Germany was sucked into a war of attrition, she could not hope to win. The fanboys must learn that higher kill scores, nice medals, planes and uniforms don't necessarily won wars.

As for NK, don't worry with them for the near future, they are just a rabid dog from Russia and China.

stona · Apr 6, 2013

Juha said:
20.3.45 there seems to have been 12 Gruppen equipped with 109G-10, 9 with G-14 and 9 with K-4.

Which nine Gruppen? I've given the four that were definitely totally Bf 109 K equipped. There were Ks with other units as evidenced in loss returns,but that doesn't mean they had totally converted.

The Luftwaffe had about 1,300 fighter in June 1944 too. Production increases barely kept up with ever increasing attrition. The problem is their distribution. In June '44 they were hopelessly diluted and this never really changed.

Western Front 425
Norway 40
Reich Defence 370
Eastern Front 475
Balkans 65

Never anywhere near enough in one place at one time. The numbers altered from time to time but the percentage distribution from May '44 until the end of the war remained similar.

For the BoB the Luftwaffe had 1,171 fighters which it could bring to bear against the RAF (as of August 1940). It had a total strength of 1736 as of May 1940. It was taking on one air force on one front which was equipped with roughly 650 serviceable fighters.

Yes,that is less for the BoB, but you are splitting hairs. Totals can be misleading. In 1944/45 in no theatre did the Luftwaffe have even 50% of the fighters available that it had employed against the RAF in the BoB and it lost that battle. That's the quantative argument. Now ask yourself what sort of quality the Jagdwaffe of 1944/45,with its 100 or so extra fighters,widely distributed,had compared with that of 1940. This particularly after the cull of Bodenplatte.

Add to that that in 1944/5 the Luftwaffe wasn't facing 600/700 fighters,it was facing many,many thousands. Someone else can do the maths. It was a spent force,hopelessly inadequate for the task at hand.

Cheers

Steve

Juha · Apr 6, 2013

Hello Steve

stona said:
Which nine Gruppen? I've given the four that were definitely totally Bf 109 K equipped. There were Ks with other units as evidenced in loss returns,but that doesn't mean they had totally converted.

III./JG3, 4, 27, 53 and 77, I./JG 77, IV/JG 53, in one message on one discussion board Kurfürst gave in addition of those of II./KG(J) 6 and 55.

stona said:
The Luftwaffe had about 1,300 fighter in June 1944 too. Production increases barely kept up with ever increasing attrition. The problem is their distribution. In June '44 they were hopelessly diluted and this never really changed.

Western Front 425
Norway 40
Reich Defence 370
Eastern Front 475
Balkans 65

Never anywhere near enough in one place at one time. The numbers altered from time to time but the percentage distribution from May '44 until the end of the war remained similar.

After Bodenplatte most fighter units were transferred to the East

stona said:
For the BoB the Luftwaffe had 1,171 fighters which it could bring to bear against the RAF (as of August 1940). It had a total strength of 1736 as of May 1940. It was taking on one air force on one front which was equipped with roughly 650 serviceable fighters.

29.6.40 LW had 1107 serviceable SE fighters, ok they had then also Zerströder units

stona said:
Yes,that is less for the BoB, but you are splitting hairs. Totals can be misleading. In 1944/45 in no theatre did the Luftwaffe have even 50% of the fighters available that it had employed against the RAF in the BoB and it lost that battle. That's the quantative argument. Now ask yourself what sort of quality the Jagdwaffe of 1944/45,with its 100 or so extra fighters,widely distributed,had compared with that of 1940. This particularly after the cull of Bodenplatte.

Add to that that in 1944/5 the Luftwaffe wasn't facing 600/700 fighters,it was facing many,many thousands. Someone else can do the maths. It was a spent force,hopelessly inadequate for the task at hand.

IIRC only JG 2, 26 and 53 were left in the West after Bodenplatten, there were 881 serviceable fighters in the East on 9 Apr 45 without possible some of 40 in Norway which might have faced VVS up north. We all know the quality decline of LW but IMHO we are now talking on numbers. And LW was badly overstretched already in late 1942

Juha

stona · Apr 6, 2013

Juha said:
881 serviceable fighters in the East on 9 Apr 45 without possible some of 40 in Norway which might have faced VVS up north.
Juha

Which pretty much sums up what I was saying. That is way less than they had for the BoB and they started that with less than the BoF! It was downhill all the way. How many fighters did the Soviets have opposing them?

The total number of fighters in the ETO,including Mediterranean,both RAF and USAAF (obviously not all available or flying against Germany) puts these German numbers into perspective 12,764.

I'm not sure that all those 7 or 9 Gruppen had converted to the K-4. I'd like to see some evidence for that. There is presumably a list somewhere? There were 318 K-4s available (Prien)at this time so at around 35 per gruppe it might be possible.

Cheers

Steve

Juha · Apr 6, 2013

stona said:
Which pretty much sums up what I was saying. That is way less than they had for the BoB and they started that with less than the BoF! It was downhill all the way. How many fighters did the Soviets have opposing them?

Yes, 226 less than on 29.6. and 39 less than on 28.9.40. Soviet had c. 8000 SE fighters in Jan 45, meaning maybe 6000 - 6400 serviceable.

stona said:
I'm not sure that all those 7 or 9 Gruppen had converted to the K-4. I'd like to see some evidence for that. There is presumably a list somewhere? There were 318 K-4s available (Prien)at this time so at around 35 per gruppe it might be possible.

Not sure that all were fully equipped with K-4s but most probably were and the rest were mainly equipped with K-4s, Milosh link gives the 3 under LFl 6 control, Kurfürst gave as his source "Fritz X. Kober - Jakob Maria Mathmann: The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Vol. 2. Schiffer Publishing, 1996. English edition". I haven't seen the books, so I put "it seems" in my message. There ise also a list on Poruba's and Janda's Messerschmitt Bf 109K, JaPo, which gives only 5 Gruppen as mainly equipped but of the 3 mentioned on the docu to which Milosh gave his link only one is given as mainly equipped in the Japo book list, I tended to believe more the docu.

Juha

Milosh · Apr 6, 2013

The G-10 might be the 'poor mans K-4' but its performance was more or less the same as the K-4.

There is also this,
Kurfürst - OKL, GdJ-Grp. Qu-, Br. B. Nr. 1561/45 g.Kdos. von 20. März 1945.

which lists 5 Gruppen having the K-4.

Though it says III./JG27 has G-10s, Kurfurst has edited this entry, and another source (Six Months to Oblivion) has this unit with K-4s.

stona · Apr 6, 2013

For sure the three on Milosh's list and III./JG 26 were K-4 equipped,fully converted. K-4s were delivered to 22 other Gruppen but none of these were fully converted.

JG 11 lost quite a few towards the end of the war,so must have had a substantial number in service.

Cheers
Steve

Juha · Apr 6, 2013

Milosh said:
The G-10 might be the 'poor mans K-4' but its performance was more or less the same as the K-4.

There is also this,
Kurfürst - OKL, GdJ-Grp. Qu-, Br. B. Nr. 1561/45 g.Kdos. von 20. März 1945.

which lists 5 Gruppen having the K-4.

Though it says III./JG27 has G-10s, Kurfurst has edited this entry, and another source (Six Months to Oblivion) has this unit with K-4s.

Thanks Milosh, that is the same list that K posted in 2005, I counted 9 Gruppen with K-4s

Best German fighter for the Eastern Front

Tech Sergeant

Major

1st Lieutenant

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Staff Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Staff Sergeant

Staff Sergeant

Major

Staff Sergeant

Major

Staff Sergeant

Major

Senior Master Sergeant

Major

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Major

Senior Master Sergeant

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads