British Debts

[pbfoot]

I don't know about the repayment but the Sun Life building was the depository for the Brit for the Crown Jewels and the Gold Bullion from Bank of england . The story of them putting on board ship (fast Cruisers)is fascinating guys were bunked on gold bullion . They dropped a case and gold coins were rolling all over

 

[Instal]

You can bet not all those coins ended up back in the box! I am interested to know what happened to this money because it relates to an earlier post where I say that Britain ceased to be a World power and the U.S. became one partly because of Britain having to purchase so much from the U.S. during 39 - 41. I asked my Dad once "how did Great Britain loose it's dominance in the world?" He answered "we had the great misfoutune of winning two world wars"

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Either way it was not the responsibility of the citizens of the United States to carry the burdon financially for other nations. Anyones debts should be paid in full...

 

[Instal]

Either way it was not the responsibility of the citizens of the United States to carry the burdon financially for other nations. Anyones debts should be paid in full...

"carry the burdon" I think this is where my opinion differs from most on this topic. It seems the general opinion in the States, even after all this time is that it was not thier war. This confuses me. Where freedom and human rights are concerned it shouldn't matter if the problem country is on your border or across the ocean, it is the duty of all of us to do something about it. I am sure that given the choice the good people of the U.S. would choose to live in a world without Hitler. Without Great Britain this would not have been possible. Today western countries (primarily the U.S.) give millions perhaps billions in aid to countries to sway them toward democracy and human rights. From 39 - 41 Britain was volunteering to fight for these causes against the most powerful opponent of these values the world has ever seen. Not only were they willing to exhaust thier own financial resources they were willing to fight and die for them as well. Thier homes and places of work were bombed, thier country was left in financial ruin. Who is carying the burden? And just what do they get in return? Years of debt payment and to stand by and watch vanquished countries recieve assistance in rebuilding while in thier own country they can't buy a stick of butter. My parents (including my father who is X -R.A.F.) left England after the war not because they wanted to but because they saw little hope for a good life. Once again I say that this debt should never have existed. Moreover I think the free world owes the people of Great Britain an enormous debt of gratitude for seeing Natziism for the evil that it was and taking the fight to them while all around them either collapsed or did nothing.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"carry the burdon" I think this is where my opinion differs from most on this topic. It seems the general opinion in the States, even after all this time is that it was not thier war. This confuses me. Where freedom and human rights are concerned it shouldn't matter if the problem country is on your border or across the ocean, it is the duty of all of us to do something about it. I am sure that given the choice the good people of the U.S. would choose to live in a world without Hitler. Without Great Britain this would not have been possible.

What you say is reasonable but the good people of the US (and I think I could speak for most) would not want to be told that they have to pay an extra 5 or 10% on their income tax to cover the burden of a "freebee" to the UK - it's that simple. If the shoe was on the other foot do you think the Average British citizen would of wanted to give billions of dollars away despite the cause?

Today western countries (primarily the U.S.) give millions perhaps billions in aid to countries to sway them toward democracy and human rights.

There's always a price for that generocity

"
From 39 - 41 Britain was volunteering to fight for these causes against the most powerful opponent of these values the world has ever seen. Not only were they willing to exhaust thier own financial resources they were willing to fight and die for them as well. Thier homes and places of work were bombed, thier country was left in financial ruin. Who is carying the burden? And just what do they get in return? Years of debt payment and to stand by and watch vanquished countries recieve assistance in rebuilding while in thier own country they can't buy a stick of butter.

I think you have a very limited view of how armaments are procured and delivered, especially during WW2 - as pointed out in many cases the US government had to first pay the contractor for lend lease contracts - then you had some situations where the "foreign government" unilaterally approached a US contractor for a product - a prime example of that was the initial purchase of the Hudson.

"
My parents (including my father who is X -R.A.F.) left England after the war not because they wanted to but because they saw little hope for a good life. Once again I say that this debt should never have existed. Moreover I think the free world owes the people of Great Britain an enormous debt of gratitude for seeing Natziism for the evil that it was and taking the fight to them while all around them either collapsed or did nothing.

Great Britain would of been a lot better after the war with it did not embrace many "socialistic" programs that eventually killed her ability to stimulate her economy and that burden was taken on by the people.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

"carry the burdon" I think this is where my opinion differs from most on this topic. It seems the general opinion in the States, even after all this time is that it was not thier war. This confuses me. Where freedom and human rights are concerned it shouldn't matter if the problem country is on your border or across the ocean,

Negative.

Why do you think the US has to be the World Police? Why was it wrong for the United States to stay out of a European Regional conflict that at the time did not have anything to do with us.

We did not know about the Death Camps at the time. In 1939 it was a regional conflict and it was the duty of England and France to take care of there own problems.

I dont understand why you dont understand that?

Using your logic the Canadians and the English should have been in Vietnam with us. Is that not true? Wasn't Vietnam about protecting the Democratic south from the Oppressive Communist North? Was it not about Freedom and Human Rights then?

Come on now, think about it...

it is the duty of all of us to do something about it.

Again read above. Why was Canada and England not in Vietnam then? Why is Canada not in Africa fighting for the Freedom of those countries?

Again I am asking this because it is based off your logic. Logic that you have come up with in your own words.

I am sure that given the choice the good people of the U.S. would choose to live in a world without Hitler.

Agreed but how does it make it the responsibility of US Tax Payers to pay for the war efforts of another country? US tax payers were allready paying more and more money to fund the US War effort once we came in the war and we are also supposed to pay for the English one as well?

Come on now? That is not right and you know it....

Without Great Britain this would not have been possible.

And without the materials from the US it would not have been possible....

It is a two way street here.

Today western countries (primarily the U.S.) give millions perhaps billions in aid to countries to sway them toward democracy and human rights. From 39 - 41 Britain was volunteering to fight for these causes against the most powerful opponent of these values the world has ever seen. Not only were they willing to exhaust thier own financial resources they were willing to fight and die for them as well. Thier homes and places of work were bombed, thier country was left in financial ruin. Who is carying the burden?

You make it seem as though England was the only country fighting. Got news for you they were not. Up until 1941 it was not the fight of the US. I dont care if you want to understand this or not, but you will just have to get over it.

Again it was not the responsibiliy of US Citizens to pay for Englands war effort, especially after the US entered the war.

And just what do they get in return? Years of debt payment

Why should it come out of my pocket or the pocket of any other US citizen. We had to pay for own war effort.

Jesus Christ I sound like a Broken Record. Is it that hard to understand?

and to stand by and watch vanquished countries recieve assistance in rebuilding while in thier own country they can't buy a stick of butter.

And if those countries were not assisted they would have fallen to communism or we would have a repeat again. That is how WW2 all got started because of the way the victors of WW1 handled the reparations.

I think you need to learn a bit more about history and why things happened the way they did and maybe you will understand this.

My parents (including my father who is X -R.A.F.) left England after the war not because they wanted to but because they saw little hope for a good life.

I am sorry to hear that. However explain to me how that is the problem of the US Government and the US citizens.

That is why you are missing the big picture.

Once again I say that this debt should never have existed.

Once again I say you are wrong....

Moreover I think the free world owes the people of Great Britain an enormous debt of gratitude for seeing Natziism for the evil that it was and taking the fight to them while all around them either collapsed or did nothing.

I am sorry but that is the funniest thing I have heard.

I am not one of those people that think the US won the war by themselves because they did not. It was an allied effort.

However I think England needs to thank the US for:

1. Giving the aid to England to allow them to carry on a war.

2. Joining the war because frankly England could not have done it without the US. That is a fact.

Seriously man you need to learn your WW2 history because you are letting your emotions get in the way of facts.


Now my English friends and members of this forum. I do not actually believe that England is in debt of grattitude to the United States at all. I think you all know my true feelings about the subject of England and the US and how they were allies together in this war.

I however had to say what I did because of this post.

Again I think you all know my feelings on the subject and I do not wish to offend any of you.

 

[pbfoot]

I agree the money should be paid back even with interest

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thankyou. I really dont understand why it is so hard for some people to understand.

That is how the world works. Emac explained it the best when he likened it to a business.

Also as was stated the products and war materials that went to England during the Lend Lease had to be paid somehow to even be made in the first place. So the US government pays the companies and factories to build the stuff and then someone still has to pay it back.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Here's an example of how the system worked then and today;

Canada bought 18 Auroras back in 1978, a very large expenditure. To assist in that sale the US government agree in a "offset," a percentage of the Aurora's construction was moved to Canada - it turned out about 45% of the Aurora/ Orion was built in Canada between 1979 and 1990. I know there were similar situations involving trading equipment for bases and guaranteeing low interest loans to buy armaments. Bottom line everybody got something out of the situation but in the terms of loans, they shoud be paid back with interest regardless of situation...

 

[mkloby]

I agree Chris.

Instal - I thought back on page 1 you were reacting emotionally, not rationally to the issue. Parts of me agree with some of the things you have said, but I haven't seen anything to make me think that the US taxpayer should have been asked to shoulder the costs.

British decline was not caused by repayment of these debts. It was far more deep than that, and not the subject of this thread.

Also, if you speaking of the Marshall Plan above when you spoke of conquered nations receiving aid, the UK was not excluded either.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree Chris.

Instal - I thought back on page 1 you were reacting emotionally, not rationally to the issue. Parts of me agree with some of the things you have said, but I haven't seen anything to make me think that the US taxpayer should have been asked to shoulder the costs.

British decline was not caused by repayment of these debts. It was far more deep than that, and not the subject of this thread.

Also, if you speaking of the Marshall Plan above when you spoke of conquered nations receiving aid, the UK was not excluded either.

Its not rocket science.

In all actuallity that is where he needs to learn more about what he talking about anyhow. England recieved the largest amount of aid under the Marschall Plan.

Lets see total amount in aid given:

England: 3,297,000,000
France: 2,296,000,000
Germany: 1,448,000,000
Italy: 1,204,000,000
Belgium and Netherlands: 777,000,000

I will not list every single country.

So again Instal for you to say that England was not being helped out after the war to rebuild is very wrong as well.

Did the United States have to help with this? No they did not but they chose to because a Rebuilt Europe and Stable and not Communist was a benefit to the United States.

Should this aid have to be repaid?

Ofcourse it should and it was rightfully repaid.

 

[Arsenal VG-33]

That is how WW2 all got started because of the way the victors of WW1 handled the reparations.

If you mean the UK, FR, and the USA, then yes I would aggree with you.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Who were the victors of WW1?

UK, France, and the USA......

Why would I not include the USA in the list of victors?

 

[Arsenal VG-33]

Who were the victors of WW1?

UK, France, and the USA......

Why would I not include the USA in the list of victors?

I was looking for a little clarification. Afterall, we're speaking of war reparations/debt repayments to the US, correct?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

My comment about the victors and WW1 and being one of the causes that led to WW2 has to do with the way the victors handled the reparations after WW1.

It helped fuel the political environment in Germany in the 1930s that helped the NSDP rise to power.

Was it the only cause of WW2 or the dircect cause? No but it was a factor that helped lead to the 2nd World War.

 

[Arsenal VG-33]

My comment about the victors and WW1 and being one of the causes that led to WW2 has to do with the way the victors handled the reparations after WW1.

It helped fuel the political environment in Germany in the 1930s that helped the NSDP rise to power.

Was it the only cause of WW2 or the dircect cause? No but it was a factor that helped lead to the 2nd World War.

....and I agree absolutely.

 

[Instal]

I personally think that the U.S. is owed a debt of gratitude for thier part as well but not to the exclusion of anyone else as you would have it. I am of the opinion that we should have been there in Viet Nam, better yet the allies should have continued the fight into Russia as Stalin was very near the evil tyrant that Hitler was then there would have been no Viet Nam. As far as learning my WW2 history I have never professed to be in posession of all the facts, that is why I find this forum so interesting. I have however learned and researched as time has allowed. With all due respect I invite correction when my knowledge is lacking but my opinion is my own.

 

[Instal]

I agree Chris.

Instal - I thought back on page 1 you were reacting emotionally, not rationally to the issue. Parts of me agree with some of the things you have said, but I haven't seen anything to make me think that the US taxpayer should have been asked to shoulder the costs.

British decline was not caused by repayment of these debts. It was far more deep than that, and not the subject of this thread.

Also, if you speaking of the Marshall Plan above when you spoke of conquered nations receiving aid, the UK was not excluded either.

Thank you mkloby, I was not aware that the U.K. recieved any assistance post war. I realise that there were more factors involved in the decline of the U.K.'s financial situation however repayment of war debts must have been a contributing factor.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I personally think that the U.S. is owed a debt of gratitude for thier part as well but not to the exclusion of anyone else as you would have it.

Did I say that? No, I did not. Please dont put words in my mouth.

If I recall I even said that it was a complete Allied effort. The US could not have done without her allies England, Canada, Australia, Russia, etc.. but England and the rest of the allies could not have done it without the US either.

You are the one that said the rest of the world should pay gratitude to England for fighting Germany. I am sorry but England was not the only one fighting Germany.

I am of the opinion that we should have been there in Viet Nam,

That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I personally dont think they should have been there. To me it was not there war.

better yet the allies should have continued the fight into Russia as Stalin was very near the evil tyrant that Hitler was then there would have been no Viet Nam.

I will not agree nor disagree on this. I do however think that is a discussion for a different thread.

As far as learning my WW2 history I have never professed to be in posession of all the facts, that is why I find this forum so interesting. I have however learned and researched as time has allowed. With all due respect I invite correction when my knowledge is lacking but my opinion is my own.

Then I challenge you to learn more on this subject.

Please dont take me wrong when I say this because I am not trying to insult you but I think your views on this very topic you are thinking without rational and letting your emotion get in the way of facts and what truely happened historically and why they happened that way.

Thank you mkloby, I was not aware that the U.K. recieved any assistance post war. I realise that there were more factors involved in the decline of the U.K.'s financial situation however repayment of war debts must have been a contributing factor.

I dont know if you saw what I posted about aid under the Marschall Plan to help rebuild western europe and that England recieved the most aid so I will post the numbers again.

The top 5 recievers of aid from the US post WW2:

England: 3,297,000,000
France: 2,296,000,000
Germany: 1,448,000,000
Italy: 1,204,000,000
Belgium and Netherlands: 777,000,000

 

[Freebird]

Heads in the sand? The real sin during that period was the way Britain and France sat on their asses for 8 months after Germany rolled through Poland.

SIN? The US sat on its @$$ during this period too!
The British French high command did not think that an attack into Germany would be successful, so the were building up their forces (especially air!) preparing for the expected attack on France. Why should the British French be held responsible for the defence of Poland? They did declare war, yes, but they are under no "obligation" to pursue war other than how they see fit, in their own national interests. Why should the US not also be responsible for protecting a fellow democracy?