Dallas Airshow Tragedy
- Thread starter javlin
- Start date
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Admiral Beez
Major
The USAF still has C-130s from 1954? Surely they've been replaced by later produced C-130 models?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
No - they've been replaced.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Didn't some of those older ones get transferred to the USFS and some State Forestry departments?
I know the Forest Service has some P-3s still in service.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Actually some private operators (Aero Union) picked them up. Some with disastrous results
The results of not completing a TCTO
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Just to touch on the C-130, was driving down Drew St. here in Clearwater yesterday and three of them flew overhead and turned on final, landing at St. Pete/Clearwater airport, or the Coast Guard station, whichever. Was a pretty cool thing to watch.
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,354
- Jan 31, 2021
Blancolirio also did a video about the initial report.
I consider this lot of BS from self appointed "experts" regurgitated in the "we don't want to wait for the facts" media. I'd flown with the Confederate Air Force in the '50s and '60s when it was a lot looser and seat of the pants.
IMHO, the P-63 has better visibility from the important angles than most any WWII fighter. None of the cockpit framing was any worse in this situation. I'd ascribe the situation to a badly conceived performance, calling upon a narrow timing window to be in front of the crowd with no mention of practicing, and compounded by being very close to the ground.
I strongly question the Air Boss' judgement (and perhaps the promoter's) in calling for an oblique pass instead of a safer tail chase. Note that Blue Angels, T-Birds, et al only have their best solo pilots perform closing passes instead of the less dangerous formations ... no matter how close they fly. And most of all, they practice, practice, practice!!
I've flown Navy fighters in air combat maneuvering and gunnery, and these result in more loss of pilots and planes than carrier landing training ... and the military ACM and gunnery takes place at high altitudes.
A secondary factor is the pilot's familiarity with the aircraft. I don't know the P-63 pilot's experience, but most owners have demanding careers, with little time to fly, let alone practice air to air work. Add to that the cost of Avgas and maintaining a 70 y/o chunk of aluminum keeps their flight hours to a minimum.
I can predict that future flight displays will be more regulated and tame.
Grandson312
Airman
FYI, both planes in the accident happen to have been selected (prior) in this year's Commemorative Air Force Calendar.
caf-gift-shop.myshopify.com
2023 CAF Calendar
The Commemorative Air Force (CAF) calendar is a full year of stunning photographs of the CAF Ghost Squadron, the CAF’s fleet of warbird aircraft. This carefully curated selection of images of different types of aircraft the CAF flies across the nation including fighters, bombers, cargo, and...
caf-gift-shop.myshopify.com
Yes, but the BBMF have incredibly skilled, very high hours military pilots, who train relentlessly, and an incredibly tight display regime that would never tolerate planes on intersecting paths.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Grandson312
Airman
My statement was made in the context of not finding our P-63 pilot at fault, and not adding my opinions one way or another to the raw nerves of his friends. It's been a few weeks now, so I will say that poor piloting is the least likely explanation. It's almost impossible. The investigation is 18-24 months after all, and this is not a simple car insurance fault-finding process. Comparisons lead to far too many logic problems.
Here is a recent article, and NOTE: THE HEADLINE IS CLICKBAIT, AND IS CONTRADICTED BY THE BODY OF TEXT, but there is some possibly new information so I'm including it in the thread for that reason.
Report: No altitude advice before Dallas air show crash
A preliminary report from federal officials on a deadly midair collision at a Dallas air show says no guidance was given on altitudes before a World War II-era fighter plane crashed into a bomber.
The body of the article clearly states that according to "a source", there was indeed an altitude briefing.
What stands out is the assertions that -
- the Bomber group was assigned a higher altitude (1000ft) than the Fighter group (500ft) (and suggests this is unusual for an airshow?)
- there is data recorded from the B17 currently being analyzed that we're hearing may be pertinent
- the recorder on the P-63 was not functioning. (was anything else not functioning?)
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I don't think it was a matter of "not functioning," the unit in the P-63 didn't record flight data from what I understand but I'll stand to be corrected.
This measurement wasn't altitude, it was horizontal distance from the crowd line.
AFAK they are all RAF pilots but their displays especially those with the Lancaster rarely involve more than a fly past, the whole idea of the BBMF is to keep them flying so that many people can see them, not see fantastic displays of pilot skill and coordination.
I was going to say that. 1000ft is the normal circuit altitude.
From what I'm reading, it sounds like US airshows are run quite differently to what we do here in NZ. Our Display Director doesn't control what formations or any displays are doing. They run their practiced and briefed routine. Any deviation will likely result in a 'Knock it Off" call.
Juan Brown has done a dissection of the NTSB docket released recently here:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc4FP4VZOd8&list=WL&index=9
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc4FP4VZOd8&list=WL&index=9
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Hey, can you sum it up, Gumby? It's oh-bed-thirty for me and a busy day tomorrow. TIA if you can.
Donivanp
Major
They were flying along and then Trey weren't flying anymore. Nobody should have been flying in a pancake mode. Air boss screwed up. Sum up done
