Did the Luftwaffe Strafe Civilians in England in WW2?

[Kurfürst]

My point is that you can't tell wheter they are civvies or a soliders, even if the person most far away on this picture is probably 150 meters away or less... how far away a fighter bomber pilot would be before starting an attack run? 500 m? 800? 1000?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

My point is that you can't tell wheter they are civvies or a soliders, even if the person most far away on this picture is probably 150 meters away or less... how far away a fighter bomber pilot would be before starting an attack run? 500 m? 800? 1000?

That is not a valid argument. Fact remains that the majority of people in a city are civilians. You don' attack crowds of people like that because you are going to kill more civilians than anything.

Besides the thread is not about city blocks of people, but small groups of people walking around out in a field or a small street. You can tell if they are civilian or not.

 

[Milosh]

My point is that you can't tell wheter they are civvies or a soliders, even if the person most far away on this picture is probably 150 meters away or less... how far away a fighter bomber pilot would be before starting an attack run? 500 m? 800? 1000?

So does this we will not see you crying war criminal about the P-51s staffing civilians at Dresden anymore?

 

[dunmunro1]

The key point is whether or not the Luftwaffe or any other airforce was authorized to attack civilian targets, and if so, then what forms of attack were permissible. The RAF was strictly forbidden to attack civilian targets, at least at the beginning of the war, but this policy seems to have been dropped around the time of the Fall of France. The Luftwaffe, OTOH, was seems to have been attacking civilian targets almost from the first day of the war.

 

[syscom3]

So does this we will not see you crying war criminal about the P-51s staffing civilians at Dresden anymore?

Start your own thread about Dresden.

This thread is for the LW over England.

 

[JoeB]

The Luftwaffe, well Kondor Legion, was bombing civilian targets in the Spanish Civil War; it's long since been established the bombing of Guernica was on purpose (claimed not to have happened or to have been an accident by the Germans at the time) as an experiment in the effect on civilian morale. And the German Imperial Air Service in WWI was de facto bombing civilians targets in the first World War, since it couldn't possibly achieve the accuracy to hit the nominal transport (railway station), industrial, etc. targets in the London area it was nominally going after. Of course this latter state of affairs typified Allied bombing in WWII, nominally against industrial or transport targets in populated areas, but accuracy made it de facto civilian bombing.

The issue of strafing per se could be considered separate as far as it related to what individual airmen or units did under their general orders, but it seems like the big picture issue was bombing policy, not strafing. Again for example the low atlitude fighter bomber raids by the Germans on smaller British cities ca. 1941 bombed town centers, did it really made a big difference whether or not they strafed too? (made a difference to a particular individual being strafed, I suppose, but not so much difference in general).

Allied or specifically USAAF fighters (which spent more time over Germany itself) routinely strafed targets like trains, road vehicles and river traffic where civilians were likely to be killed, yet the targets themselves had bona fide military value. And a lot of German 'strafing of civilians' would fall in the same category presumably. Another category for all combatants were areas closer to the ground combat front lines. Fighters demonstrably had a very hard time reliably telling their own soldiers from enemy frequently shooting up their own, so mistaking civilians for soldiers in such areas isn't a stretch at all; not the same as strafing city streets or farms far in the enemy's interior. There were many situations.

Joe

 

[GrauGeist]

All sides had thier share of strafing civilians, the Japanese shot up civilians well away from military targets on Hawaii, 7 December as well.

 

[MikeGazdik]

I think arguments like this are of little value. It was war. Ugly happens. It did then at it does now. It is way too easy for us to judge another, while we are completely seperated from the hell that those participants lived in daily.

Who worked in the factories that the allies targeted? Soldiers? Or civilian workers? The civilian that was straffed on a roadside, if they are heading to a factory, or delivering goods / supplies to a military base, are they not part of the war machine?

It is cold, it is brutal, and it is war. And it is why we try not to repeat those events.

 

[109ROAMING]

My mother was a child in a farming family in western germany during the war and was injured during a fighter bomber attack on the farm she worked on so it's not a one way thing.

Although it was an RAF sinle seat fighter she sain the Americans were the worst culprits and used to enjoy it

I don't think thats a fair statement , injured during an attack and strafing civilian's are 2 different things

Not to mention the American pilots ' enjot it' comment

 

[syscom3]

What I am wondering is, a fighter or bomber that is strafing anything on the deck, is usually doing so when the pilots are assured of air supremacy.

In England, the LW didnt have air supremacy for too long, and I doubt the fighters were strafing anything that moves after 1940.

 

[Clay_Allison]

I heard a WWII P-47 pilot in an interview say that if it was German he'd shoot at it and that was just the way it was. I know I'd feel the same way. Could be a factory worker on the way to make a rifle to kill an American, could be anyone that could in a small way inconvenience the war effort if he didn't turn up at work tomorrow. In a war for the survival of my country, that's all I'd need to know.

 

[Maximowitz]

So does this we will not see you crying war criminal about the P-51s staffing civilians at Dresden anymore?

It never happened. Another WWII myth.


Well worth investing in Frederick Taylor's excellent book on Dresden.

 

[N4521U]

Man-o-man, this thread sure has opened some deep feelings and opinions. Do you think it is worth this kind of confrontation? Every war or even radical activity can be condemned, or even supported by one side or the other. We can only sympathise with each side. That one or the other has such deep feelings that override common sense. I think the basic problem Is, everyone needs a bloody hobby!!!! Bill

 

[Lucky13]

With all the troop movements etc. going on throughout the war and civilians being caught up in them, I think that it's impossible not to wound and even kill civilians when strafing, as you see them in the heat of the battle, military targets....

 

[Bug_racer]

I think its feasible to straff anything that moves in foreign lands . The enemy has to make it clear that the person/vehicle/building is not of military use eg hospital/school/medic/ambulance . Failure to do so makes it a military target . The real debate here is whether you should shoot down a parachutist who has just jumped from his plane !

Looking at it from a German pilots perspective back in 1940 , your pretty much a supreme military country at the time and you dont want enemy civilians pointing at you , you want to install fear into them . If rumours start abounding that civilians are targeted then they will spend less time looking at the plane and more time trying to hide from it !

 

[Clay_Allison]

So does this we will not see you crying war criminal about the P-51s staffing civilians at Dresden anymore?

Nothing done in the heat of battle should be considered a war crime IMO. Only those things done in cold blood with intent should be considered. Just my evil opinion that the high minded ideal formed in safety and comfort mean very little to a man who has to think fast while getting shot at. I don't know what happened at Dresden, but if they thought they were being shot at or were blasting an enemy target I'll give them (and the luftwaffe in the same circumstances) the benefit of the doubt.

 

[claidemore]

People in high stress situations, (including fighter pilots), who set out on a task, have a need to do something towards the fullfillment of that task. If they are frustrated in their attemps they will sometimes take ineffectual actions that 'duplicate' their intended goal. It's a form of posturing, which anybody in combat can be affected by.
A fighter pilot strafing civilian targets could be seen as posturing. He's frustrated because he hasn't found a military target, either through bad luck, or even being overly cautious, and eventually fires at something, anything, just to relieve the frustration.
It's not right, but that's a partial explanation of why it happens.
Or he could just be an evil sob.

By the way, N4521U, we have a hobby, and this is it.

 

[Erich]

hey guys why not get back to syscxoms original thread question.

yes the LW strafed civilians and yes the P-51's of the US 8th Af strafed civilians around Dresden.Chemnitz during that terrible week of February 1945, it was an order; for some in denial then an unwritten order, all of Germany's populace was to feel the effects of Allied ground strafes........yes that is the way it was my own Familie in Germany stated this, it was all out war anything and everyone was a legitimate target.

now I have strayed off topic as well ........

back to our regular scheduled broadcasting

 

[Maximowitz]

hey guys why not get back to syscxoms original thread question.

yes the LW strafed civilians and yes the P-51's of the US 8th Af strafed civilians around Dresden.Chemnitz during that terrible week of February 1945, it was an order; for some in denial then an unwritten order, all of Germany's populace was to feel the effects of Allied ground strafes........yes that is the way it was my own Familie in Germany stated this, it was all out war anything and everyone was a legitimate target.

now I have strayed off topic as well ........

back to our regular scheduled broadcasting

Erich, I think you'll find the myth of the US Air Force strafing civilians in the Dresden area was exactly that. A myth. There is no documentary confirmation whatsoever. In neither the American Army Air Force documentation or in German accounts originating at the time are daylight strafing attacks mentioned.

Frederick Taylor has an entire section of his book " Dresden, Tuesday 13th February 1945" Bloomsbury 2004 ISBN 07475 7084 1 devoted to this particular urban legend.

And as you say, now back to the original topic.

 

[Erich]

sorry Paul but friends in Germany say elsewise with written documentation. I hold no ill feelings it was to break the whole moral of the German populace during operation Thunderclap the combined BC/US Heavy and support operations. I did quite a lengthy data resource file on the BC role they played and the puny LW Nachjagd effort that was put up large in part to superior handling of aerial data fooling and re-adressing the LW intel

in this case it does not really matter anyway it is many years ago and most in Germany remembering Dresden and Chemnitz and other towns blasted off the planet are long gone ........