Erich
the old Sage
and don't forget the night intruder raids over England during March of 1945, the first one termed Unternehmen Gisela, anything and almost everything seen was blown apart by 2cm cannon rounds
Did the Luftwaffe Strafe Civilians in England in WW2?
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Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
8)Good point Erich. I was about to mention those myself but you beat me to it.
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Erich
the old Sage
not sure if that above book covers what I was talking about but during the Night fighter attack on BC airfields, when in doubt and if the Ju 88G's could not find A/c to blast any parked vehicle, farmhouse, bldg or even running down the nearest street with lights on was targeted, if civilians were about, well ............just run like mad
Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
The Chris Goss book is mainly about the Jabo raids but does include accounts of strafing of civilians. An excellent book by the way from a respected author.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
If you check this website...
NE Diary 1939-45; Diary Index
you will find instances of strafing throughout the war.
NE Diary 1939-45; Diary Index
you will find instances of strafing throughout the war.
I've just spoken to my Aunt about this.They lived near Canterbury (Kent) during the war and her mother recalled waving at two aircraft streaking up the valley where they lived, thinking they were British, at which point they opened fire on their local railway station! I'm sure a station is a legitamate target but there could obviously have been civilians there. My grandmother was more embarassed to have mistaken them for friendly aircraft!
Steve
Steve
Playing Dr. Phil here, but:
1. Is it important distinction whether they were civilians from UK, but not from France, Poland or Russia ?
2. Bombing of Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry and Stalingrad (the last one was particularly devastating) can hardly be denied, so does this curiosity concern Luftwaffe fighters only, not bombers (along the line: "The fighter pilots were the good Germans (Rall and Galland and all), only the others were the evil nazis")?
Clay_Allison
Staff Sergeant
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- Dec 24, 2008
I don't think it does. I think any of us would shoot anything that looked even vaguely like a target if it was us in the fighter and we were over enemy territory.
parsifal
Colonel
The attacks on civilians in Europe were legitimete because they served a military purpose, albeit a rather distant one. Perhaps the argument might be that attacking civilian targets in Britain was simply too far removed from any military purpose as to not contitute a legitimete target.
If so Im not buying it. A dead factory worker, or farmer, or even a child means a reduction in the war effort of the enemy, if only because of the grief it causes the enemy populace. Do that enough times and the enemy populace is going to become very despondent.
The dominance of the sky can play a significant morale effect, though it is impossible to measure. Planes running up and down the street shooting everything that moves is likley to have an effect far out of proportion to the actual damage caused
If so Im not buying it. A dead factory worker, or farmer, or even a child means a reduction in the war effort of the enemy, if only because of the grief it causes the enemy populace. Do that enough times and the enemy populace is going to become very despondent.
The dominance of the sky can play a significant morale effect, though it is impossible to measure. Planes running up and down the street shooting everything that moves is likley to have an effect far out of proportion to the actual damage caused
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Erich
the old Sage
total war as parsifal points out, just go reading through some brief data about 8th AF P-51's on 9th of February 45. Everything on the ground was shot up whether run by an engine or four/two legged.
Clay_Allison
Staff Sergeant
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- Dec 24, 2008
Absolutely right. One dead factory worker may mean one less gun to kill your countrymen. One dead farmer may mean some enemy soldier misses a meal and falls asleep on sentry duty because his blood sugar is low. Of course there's the morale effects as well, which are much more immediate.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Which is exactly what Churchill stated. Total war.
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syscom3
Pacific Historian
I was quite specific in it being Great Britain. I know the LW strafed civilians in other countries, mainly because they could with impunity.
But I didnt think they could do so on a large scale in GB, as the LW never had air superiority and was risking their aircraft in low level attacks with no military value.
As for whether it was good or bad, I have no judgement on it. Im only trying to see if there is evidence of widespread LW strafing attacks on GB.
Hello Clay
Quote:"I think any of us would shoot anything that looked even vaguely like a target if it was us in the fighter and we were over enemy territory"
You can count me out.
In general, I'm pretty sure that at least after WWII indiscriminate killing of civilians was banned by Geneva Conventions and I think it was not entirely accepted even before that. There was probably some legal base of the hanging of Löhr by Yugoslavs after WWII because of the bombing of Belgrad in 1941. Not saying that Löhr deserved his sentence, I'm only saying that if one of the victorious countries really want to hang some of the bomber commanders of the losers they would have found some juridical justification for that. IIRC LeMay said to his adviser McNamara in 45, he was talking on firebombing of Japanese cities, something like that "we are better to win this war or we will be hanged on this."
Juha
Quote:"I think any of us would shoot anything that looked even vaguely like a target if it was us in the fighter and we were over enemy territory"
You can count me out.
In general, I'm pretty sure that at least after WWII indiscriminate killing of civilians was banned by Geneva Conventions and I think it was not entirely accepted even before that. There was probably some legal base of the hanging of Löhr by Yugoslavs after WWII because of the bombing of Belgrad in 1941. Not saying that Löhr deserved his sentence, I'm only saying that if one of the victorious countries really want to hang some of the bomber commanders of the losers they would have found some juridical justification for that. IIRC LeMay said to his adviser McNamara in 45, he was talking on firebombing of Japanese cities, something like that "we are better to win this war or we will be hanged on this."
Juha
Clay_Allison
Staff Sergeant
- 1,154
- Dec 24, 2008
You know, I told my Biology class earlier this semester that people will get less and less able to understand how the world was when the human race had no choice but to outgrow their food and living space. It's taking the idea a new direction but birth control has been a huge factor in keeping us from being at each other's throats over scraps of bread.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
They must have been floating above it as the WTC was only 110 stories tall.
Regardless, I would suppose there are/were some crazy people in all the air forces that enjoyed doing that, I would think that is the exception more then the rule.
Regardless, I would suppose there are/were some crazy people in all the air forces that enjoyed doing that, I would think that is the exception more then the rule.
buffnut453
Captain
Other folks beat me to the punch about WWII being Total War in which the entire resources of the nations involved were focussed on the achievement of military success. Pretty much anything becomes a target (with the obvious exception of Geneva Cross/Red Crescent marked buildings and vehicles) when war has escalated to the extent that a nation is rationing food and ceasing production of domestic items like washing machines and refrigerators because you need the factories to make weapons.
The other factor to be considered is that the combatants on all sides were, for the most part, civilians in uniform. Conscripting a guy, dressing him in a poorly-fitting, itchy uniform, providing much-truncated wartime training so he can operate a weapon and then sending him to the front is very a very different proposition to the modern conception, at least in most Western nations, of a professional military organisation, and this must impact some issues of discipline (although it doesn't excuse deliberately illegal acts, eg the maltreatment of POWs or operating "death camps").
Finally, one must also remember that WWII was largely fought with censored press (even within the democratic participants). There was no CNN watching over the shoulder to report every mistake, and much reporting was altered by doctors of spin to ensure it made a positive contribution to the war effort. Again, we often forget how different Total War is to the conflicts most nations have been involved in since 1945.
To get back to the point, though, the Luftwaffe undoubtedly straffed civilians in the UK but I suspect it was done on an opportunity basis rather than being part of a deliberate operational plan. toUndermining an adversary's civilian morale was critical to the war efforts of all nations involved in the struggle. Only the US was largely immune to such efforts because of geographic separation from the actual battle areas.
Just my two penn'orth in hopes of continuing this discussion in a level-headed manner.
The other factor to be considered is that the combatants on all sides were, for the most part, civilians in uniform. Conscripting a guy, dressing him in a poorly-fitting, itchy uniform, providing much-truncated wartime training so he can operate a weapon and then sending him to the front is very a very different proposition to the modern conception, at least in most Western nations, of a professional military organisation, and this must impact some issues of discipline (although it doesn't excuse deliberately illegal acts, eg the maltreatment of POWs or operating "death camps").
Finally, one must also remember that WWII was largely fought with censored press (even within the democratic participants). There was no CNN watching over the shoulder to report every mistake, and much reporting was altered by doctors of spin to ensure it made a positive contribution to the war effort. Again, we often forget how different Total War is to the conflicts most nations have been involved in since 1945.
To get back to the point, though, the Luftwaffe undoubtedly straffed civilians in the UK but I suspect it was done on an opportunity basis rather than being part of a deliberate operational plan. toUndermining an adversary's civilian morale was critical to the war efforts of all nations involved in the struggle. Only the US was largely immune to such efforts because of geographic separation from the actual battle areas.
Just my two penn'orth in hopes of continuing this discussion in a level-headed manner.
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