Did the US save Europe in WW2?

[lesofprimus]

They cant disprove ur general statement sys, but certain points u make are disputable, locos, tanks etc etc....

Maybe we can get back on topic.... German or Russian????

Could the Russians on the Eastern Front beat the unhindered in the West Juggernaut rolling across Russia??? Could they have taken Berlin and then into France and have Russian as the language of the European Continent???

I personally dont think so... I think that without the US joining the Allies, Germany stands...

 

[Hunter368]

I agree with Dan Sys on this one.

 

[Hunter368]

Europe owes us an unending debt of gratitude for that!

I do agree with you Syscom overall, 95%.

But this comment I don't agree with. Europe owes USA an unending debt of gratitude?

This is why I don't agree with that. Lets say USA did not help in WW2 in Europe, so Germany or Russia would of taken over.....I agree.

But if USA would of stayed out of Europe and let Germany or Russia take over then what would the world like today?

You really think USA would of been able to stay out of WW2 Europe and still be the same USA as it is today? I don't think so. If you combine all of Russia's and Europe's man power and industrial base (stay with me now, if USA stayed out of it and Germany or Russia took over)......USA would be dead today (most likely)....they would also be speaken Russian or German most likely, it just might of taken 5 or 10 or 15 years longer than Europe.

USA acted in WW2 Europe to help its Allies and do the right thing.......but at the same time it was saving its own butt even if it did not realize it at the time. So to say that Europe owes USA a debt of graditude forever........is BS. Europe and USA helped each other for their mutual benefit, no extra thanks needed.....just mutual respect for each other for a job well done.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

but at the same time it was saving its own butt even if it did not realize it at the time

.

 

[syscom3]

You really think USA would of been able to stay out of WW2 Europe and still be the same USA as it is today? I don't think so.

It obviously would be different but the US was protected by two wide oceans and impervious to invasion.

Russia or Germany simply could never have produced a navy large enough to attack the US.

If you combine all of Russia's and Europe's man power and industrial base (stay with me now, if USA stayed out of it and Germany or Russia took over)......USA would be dead today (most likely)....they would also be speaken Russian or German most likely, it just might of taken 5 or 10 or 15 years longer than Europe.

So the US just surrenders to either power? Forget about the massive air force and navy we had intact in summer 1945? And again, how will those two combatants, do this? Even without the US having an atomic bomb, it was impossible.

USA acted in WW2 Europe to help its Allies and do the right thing.......but at the same time it was saving its own butt even if it did not realize it at the time. So to say that Europe owes USA a debt of graditude forever........is BS. Europe and USA helped each other for their mutual benefit, no extra thanks needed.....just mutual respect for each other for a job well done.

The purpose of this thread is not to analyze the motivations for the US getting to the European war, its to demonstrate that the allies could not have prevailed over Germany if we were not involved. Its as simple as that.

If the US had not gotten involved, Europe would be under the domination of Germany or Russia.

 

[lesofprimus]

If the US had not gotten involved, Europe would be under the domination of Germany or Russia.

And if Great Britian and her Commonwealths had not gotten involved, Europe would still be under the domination of Germany or Russia...

 

[pbfoot]

The UK has the distinction of actualy being' on its own' for at least a year so it did show that it could stand the pressure.



.

When was the UK alone I must have missed that part . Aussies and Kiwis in N.Africa plus whatever Canada had in the UK you weren't alone

 

[Hunter368]

It obviously would be different but the US was protected by two wide oceans and impervious to invasion.

Russia or Germany simply could never have produced a navy large enough to attack the US.



So the US just surrenders to either power? Forget about the massive air force and navy we had intact in summer 1945? And again, how will those two combatants, do this? Even without the US having an atomic bomb, it was impossible.



The purpose of this thread is not to analyze the motivations for the US getting to the European war, its to demonstrate that the allies could not have prevailed over Germany if we were not involved. Its as simple as that.

If the US had not gotten involved, Europe would be under the domination of Germany or Russia.

Those oceans you refer to not offer total protection, helps sure but USA would not of been free from attack.....in 5, 10, 15 or 25 years of building by the victor in Europe. See the cold war....it took the USA 40+ years to beat Russia alone.....never mind if you combined all of Russia and Europe together....USA would of lost.

Give Russia or Germany all of Russia and Europe resources and in 10-20 years she would of surpassed even the USA.

USA did have a big advantage in air power during 44-45......but not for long after that. Again unless USA were to nuke city after city.....the combined strenght of Europe and Russia would of taken USA down, it would of been just a matter of time.

Like I said I agree with you that USA or the Allies alone would of alone had a hard time with Russia or Germany.....but together they could take them down.

But my first post was to say that I disagree when you say "Europe owes us an unending debt of gratitude for that!".....there you are taking it too far. USA and Europe defeated a power together that if either one acted alone could not defeat. So to ask for a debt of graditude forever......BS. Thats wrong to say.

 

[Hunter368]

And if Great Britian and her Commonwealths had not gotten involved, Europe would still be under the domination of Germany or Russia...

Thats my point I was making to him also.....not only Europe....but perhaps the entire world or at least a big part of it.

 

[trackend]

I agree PB, I think MK may be referring to being being directly attacked, in that aspect the UK was on its own and the civilian population had to bear the full fury of a concerted effort of Hitlers forces with the prospect of an invasion.

 

[plan_D]

Hunter is absolutely right, with a German victory over Europe and Russia - the U.S would have easily been next. For Hunter; what syscom doesn't realise is that the U.S military industry picked up because of their intervention. Without U.S involvement they would not have the numbers or technology that World War II development provided. Meanwhile; Germany would have the numbers, the navy, the air force and technology that made so much a mockery of the American inter-war designs that the U.S may as well give in straight away.

The U.S had the technological ideal but without World War II it would have never been realised.

I'm rushing about this but syscom;

You asked me to mention a factory producing thousands of tanks in Canada - I did. There's no point in you trying to kick up a big fuss and laugh about it, I simply answered your querie. If you want to know more Commonwealth factories, ask for them !

And your "counter" about India and the CBI was flawed since I mentioned that for the industrial discussion, proving that the Commonwealth and Empire had industrial strength beyond Great Britain. The fact that you think the CBI was a military sideshow takes nothing away from the fact that the Commonwealth had industry beyond the U.K.

And all that takes nothing away from the fact that the British Empire (Commonwealth) alone had more people and a larger industrial base than Germany (you know, the enemy) - so there's no need to compare the potential that wasn't realised in the Commonwealth to the potential that was realised in the U.S.

And if you want to rabbit on about how Europe owes the U.S a undying amout of gratitude - maybe you should think read up on your history and starting thanking the British for letting you survive. But I won't get into that, it'll touch a nerve...

Do you know when the declaration of independance was really signed? I'll give you a hint; it's not the 4th of July.

 

[bomber]

Debt of gratitude... unending ?

I'd like to ask folk this question...

If the USA had stood up in 1939 against oppression and 'perverted sciences', the experimentation on the ill and various peoples. Do we think that Hilter faced with both the British Empire and the USA saying no would have altered his expansion strategy ?

And if rather than using the War in Europe to rebuild it's economy after the depression the USA had 'done the right thing' just how many millions of lives could have been saved by this action ?

Personaly I think it's to the USA's eternal shame that they had to be draged screaming and kicking into the war and all this 'we would have entered eventually...." is just face saving.

An unending debt of gratutde ?... Sys tell that to the 18,000 Londoners that died in the blitz whilst the USA striped any US citzens of their citizenship if they felt so outraged by their countries descision to stay out of it and came over here to fight...

The British people honour the dead of the battle of Britain and number some of them as being from the USA... but not one of them died a US citizen...

Simon

 

[trackend]

I thought it was around 25000 civis killed in London but nearly every major town in the UK got bombed at some point, some, like Coventry copped it as bad as the East End docks.
During the war political maneuvering was riff and as in peace time each nation carried out policies that they thought best suited their needs normally the US and the UK would never have entertained links with the soviets.
Like wise IMO the US did what was required for them to maintain their way of life as did the UK.
I believe that sometimes it is forgotten that before the days of jet travel the world was a much bigger place and a war in Europe was a long long way from the States so I am not surprised that the US didn't come flying in all guns blazing and it definitely not as you said Bomber to their shame at all. The US did what they had to do and although from a European prospective it would of been very handy had they got directly involved a bit earlier its understandable.
IMO the US did not save Europe but without them things would have been a lot worse and it was reciprocal without the rest of the worlds forces the US at best would have become a very different place to live and who knows potentially another axis conquest.
Roosevelt may have thought the same he certainly had a inkling after Pearl

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Debt of gratitude... unending ?

I'd like to ask folk this question...

If the USA had stood up in 1939 against oppression and 'perverted sciences', the experimentation on the ill and various peoples. Do we think that Hilter faced with both the British Empire and the USA saying no would have altered his expansion strategy ?

And if rather than using the War in Europe to rebuild it's economy after the depression the USA had 'done the right thing' just how many millions of lives could have been saved by this action ?

Personaly I think it's to the USA's eternal shame that they had to be draged screaming and kicking into the war and all this 'we would have entered eventually...." is just face saving.

An unending debt of gratutde ?... Sys tell that to the 18,000 Londoners that died in the blitz whilst the USA striped any US citzens of their citizenship if they felt so outraged by their countries descision to stay out of it and came over here to fight...

The British people honour the dead of the battle of Britain and number some of them as being from the USA... but not one of them died a US citizen...

Simon

What a load of BS!!!! Where the hell was the UK and France right after they declared war? Both nations sat on their asses for over a year and let Germany walk into half of Europe. Had the UK and France invaded Germany right from the onset, it would have thrown Hitler off balance, but this is a "would of, could of," But be rest assured, the UK would not have suffered the carnage it did during the B of B had this happened. Blaming the US for not entering the war in 1939 is just as lame as "An unending debt of gratitude," which I agree with you there.

Within 6 months of Pearl Harbor, the US went on the offence and never looked back, and yes without the combined effort of all the allies in the ETO, Germany would not have been defeated. As stated, blaming the US for your Battle of Britain losses is just as lame as the Maginot Line....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Have to agree with FBJ on this. To blame the US for problems that England had in 1939 to 1941 is bullshit. Until 1941 it was not the US problem or war for them to fight.

Get over it...

 

[pbfoot]

An unending debt of gratutde ?... Sys tell that to the 18,000 Londoners that died in the blitz whilst the USA striped any US citzens of their citizenship if they felt so outraged by their countries descision to stay out of it and came over here to fight...

Are you sure about the loss of US citizenship they fought and died as US citizens mostly with the RCAF
"On 9 September 39, Canadian defense minister Ian Mackenzie granted Homer Smith a commission as Wing Commander in the RCAF. W/C Smith was now in charge of doing a general survey of American pilots before any official commitments were made. Headquarters became the Waldorf Astoria in New York City, where Clayton Knight joined him. The two men next set out on a tour of major American flying schools. By May 1940, Smith and Knight had a list of over 300 trained American pilots who were eager to come to Canada. At this time the Canadian and British ambassadors in Washington asked what the reaction would be to the recruiting of American pilots. The answer from the "highest quarter" [President Roosevelt] reassured both governments that there would be little difficulty if all were done discreetly. [U.S. nationals would not forfeit citizenship and would have the right to transfer back to American forces should the U.S. become involved in WW II].
92% of the Eagle squadrons came from Canadian recruiting
This might clear up any miscoceptions you have
Clayton Knight Committee

 

[trackend]

Some how after Bombers post I'm not surprised at the reaction.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Its true however. How can someone blame the US for the Blitz? That is just a bullshit copout.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Its true however. How can someone blame the US for the Blitz? That is just a bullshit copout.

10-4!

 

[syscom3]

This thread is going off on a tangent............

The question is if the US stayed out of the war in Europe for any reason, could the Commonwealth countries invade Europe to join Russia and defeat Hitler.

Time is not unlimited. You cant say that by "1947 or 1948" we will be ready.

By 1944, it will either be a stalemate between Germany and Russia or a German victory.

If Russia keeps on rolling over the Germans, it will be T34's on the English Channel by summer 1945.

Now besides the single large factory in Canada producing tanks, name me the huge steel mills, shipyards and aircraft factories building hundreds of aircraft a month. Australia and S.A didnt have them, and the skilled personell to put them in India and elsewhere didnt exist.

Its still further proof that without the US industrial and manpower contributions, Europe would have been dominated by either Germany or Russia.