**** DONE: GB-40 1/72 Ju87 D/G - Heavy Hitters III

[parsifal]

completely agree that the painting instructions don't appear to have been completely researched. There are still some anomalies. I think Wotjeks suggestions are very soundly baserd, just the same, I suspect this will get down to producing colour test cards and going with what seems logical....

 

[Donivanp]

Yes I've seen some decal sets (and kit instructions) that will show you two different paint schemes for the same aircraft type in the same squadron at the same time when you know they have to be the same schemes.

 

[A4K]

Not an expert by any means, but some painting/ repainting on a local level must have occurred now and again atleast. A caption to a photo of fresh looking Hungarian Ju 87As states: 'Dive bombers in their hangar: the Black Green - Dark Green - Light Blue camouflage painted in accordance with original regulations'
(translated from Hungarian, source: Modell és Makett Extra: A Magyar Légierö a II. Világháborúban No.2, Punka György)

Re Geo's comment on the national markings across the tailplane tips, I believe these would have been carried. Though poor quality, the attached photo shows these on an unspatted Ju 87D from a mixed unit operating Ju 87Bs and Ds. (from above source)

As an aside, much information regarding RNZAF paint schemes and markings was destroyed after the war, as it was deemed useless and irrelevant to post-war matters. As a result, no-one knows now the official colours, schemes, and markings for many types of the time, especially the civilian aircraft impressed by the RNZAF (which is frustrating if you're modelling them!)
I can well imagine a similar situation in Hungary after the war, especially with the Russians taking everything of use or technical interest, which may atleast partly explain the contradictions and lack of solid information noted above.

 

[Wurger]

Humm.. My Friend you might be right that there could happen repainting at the local level. The best example are planes of no. B.703 and B.707 that had the code numbers applied on overpainted areas of the fuselage. But regarding the sentence.. 'Dive bombers in their hangar: the Black- Green - Dark Green - Light Blue camouflage painted in accordance with original orders'. I would say there is ... let's say ... a syntax error that can lead to confusion. I marked it in red. This way of notation in the sentence may suggest three separate colours for tops there , I mean Black, Green, and Dark Green. In the case the Green and Dark Green may suggest the RLM 82/83 set. But why the black would be indicated as a separate colour of the camo while it wasn't used ( except the spiral on the spinner ) ?. Just there is no point I would say. The two first colour names are for one paint only. The problem is the dash between the Black and Green. So the more correct writing would be without the dash..."Black Green - Dark Green - Light Blue".. In other words... Schwarzgrun ( RLM 70 ) - Dunkelgrun ( RLM 71) - Hellblau ( RLM 65 ). And now it makes sense and is in accordance with original orders.

Anyway it seems that the HAD decal maker corrected the colours finally.

 

[parsifal]

My head is spinning at this minute......

I can envision the Hungarians wanting to make their aircraft unique to the standard LW livery for a number of reasons. That final scheme posted by Wotjek is interesting from that perspective.....

 

[Wurger]

Why ? .. I would say all is clear now about the camo colours. The only matter that can be discused are these three-colour strips on the vertical stabilizers and elevators. Although Evan's pics didn't show these clearly I agree these were there mostly. I have seen them on many Hungarian planes used at that time. Even on a Ju-52 and Ju-86. So if you apply them it won't be a mistake.

 

[Crimea_River]

The spinning head should just land on the fact that the standard factory scheme for the Stuka was 70/71/65. That includes exports. Can't imagine a) why the Hungarians would want to repaint the entire camo scheme in the 1944 82/83 equivalents and, b) why the Germans would bother to send them batches of the new paints to repaint them in the field. Stick with the standard scheme and end the dizziness.

 

[Wurger]

Yep.. exactly.

 

[Donivanp]

I agree. If painted in the standard you should be on the mark.

 

[parsifal]

well okay, but in the space of this discussion we have uncovered at least 4 different schemes , none of which can be verified, all of which are plausible. some more than others, admittedly, but none are proved and none are unproved. just saying that its obvious what it should be doesn't prove anything. we have one really poor quality photo that really could be interpreted a number of ways.

That's the origin of the head spin. Paradoxically, its also why I would prefer to do something a little different and complete the model as a Hungarian stuka. The challenge is both challenging and interesting at the same time. and I couldn't do it without a lot of help, which I am very appreciative of.

 

[A4K]

Wojtku, I see where the hyphen problem lies... The caption is fitted alongside the photo, making the words too long to fit, thus being hyphened!
Thus the 'feketés-zöld' written (which I wrote as Black-Green) is actually feketészöld - Black Green (RLM 70 Schwarzgrün). Edited my post accordingly.

BTW, 'sötétzöld' is Dark Green (RLM 71 Dunkelgrün), and 'világoskék' Light Blue - which directly translated would mean RLM 76 Lichtblau as the original HAD instructions stated. RLM 65 is 'Hellblau' which means 'Bright Blue', so what we have is either a misinterpretation of a colour by the Author, György Punka, or his sources, or the lighter colour used for the lower surfaces...
As the caption states they were painted in accordance with original regulations however, then the lower colour of the day would be the correct option (remembering of course this was relating to Ju 87A model Stukas, not Ds). If I can find out an exact hand-over date of the D-models, and what painting regulations were applicable at the time, I will let you know.

In the meantime Michael, whichever option you choose is going to look good, and no-one it seems can prove you right or wrong!

 

[Crimea_River]

We're causing the head spin again. The bottom should be 65, not 76.

 

[Wurger]

Wojtku, I see where the hyphen problem lies... The caption is fitted alongside the photo, making the words too long to fit, thus being hyphened!
Thus the 'feketés-zöld' written (which I wrote as Black-Green) is actually feketészöld - Black Green (RLM 70 Schwarzgrün). Edited my post accordingly.

BTW, 'sötétzöld' is Dark Green (RLM 71 Dunkelgrün), and 'világoskék' Light Blue - which directly translated would mean RLM 76 Lichtblau as the original HAD instructions stated. RLM 65 is 'Hellblau' which means 'Bright Blue', so what we have is either a misinterpretation of a colour by the Author, György Punka, or his sources, or the lighter colour used for the lower surfaces...
As the caption states they were painted in accordance with original regulations however, then the lower colour of the day would be the correct option (remembering of course this was relating to Ju 87A model Stukas, not Ds). If I can find out an exact hand-over date of the D-models, and what painting regulations were applicable at the time, I will let you know.

In the meantime Michael, whichever option you choose is going to look good, and no-one it seems can prove you right or wrong!

All is fine my friend. I was sure that the trouble with the colours is the correct writing. Of course the "Black-Green" name with the dash there is correct for the English notation. But it might cause a trouble with the ID of the colour especially if there was mentioned more than the one paint separated with the dashes. It would be better to use the "/" sign to separate the colour names. Or , what would be the best way, using of the original German names.

Additionally the adjectives Light and Bright ... I'm sure you know that in Polish, Magyar and a couple of others , both of them mean exactly the same.. However in the English there can be a difference in their meaning. And it lets me believe that the author just translated the German name Lichtblau as the Light Blue and fit it to the Magyar 'világoskék' . But in fact the more correct name for the RLM76 should be the Hellgrau. The difference between the RLM 65 Hellblau and the RLM 76 Hellgrau (Lichtblau) is that the Hellblau was the light blue colour of slightly greyish tinge while the Hellgrau was the light grey paint of bluish tone. So the RLM 65 more fits to the 'világoskék' than the RLM 76. And what is more, I still agree with Andy that there should be the RLM 65 , no matter how the paint name was translated because the Ju-87D were delivered to the Hungarian AF in the factory camo RLM70/71/65..

 

[A4K]

Cheers guys, maybe all a translation thing it seems.

Personally I've never heard RLM 76 referred to as Hellgrau, only Lichtblau (though it is indeed a light blue-grey in colour). According to Kenneth Merrick, Hellgrau is RLM 63 ('German Aircraft Markings 1939-1945' - K.A Merrick)

Like I said, it'll look good either way, and I would also go the 70/71/65 road myself, simply because this seems to be the most common recipe on the net. Merrick also mentions this as the 'standard' Ju 87 paintscheme (with exceptions of course).

By the way... found an interesting image on the net (Pinterest), showing a Magyar Ju 87D with full width tactical markings on the tail.

 

[Wurger]

Yep and the last one is just called the Hellgrau colour. As far as the paint name is concerned .. also I have seen the RLM77 called with it.
Anyway the Magyar 'világoskék' means in Polish "jasnoniebieski". And in English it is Light Blue or Bright Blue. In the case the Light or Bright is the same..

 

[A4K]

Good stuff Wojtku, and you're right about the RLM 77.

So to sum up Michael (with no photos to go from, and speculation aside), I would also just go with the following mix:
- standard splinter camouflage scheme in RLM 70/71/65
- national colours on rudder only, not tail itself
- national colours on tailplane ends (upper and lower)
- Yellow theatre markings in band around fuselage and on lower wing tips.
- White spinner with Black spiral.

I think that covers it...

 

[parsifal]

Whatever the outcome, I'm glad Ive got the option of the Hungarian scheme at all.

 

[parsifal]

Its pretty clear for me which burrow I'm going to go down. RLM 70-71 for the upper surfaces. yellow TO flashes aft the fuselage roundels. RLM 65 for the lower surfaces. National insignia flashes for parts of the of the vertical tail rudder, as well as the horizontal tail tips. White spinner with that wiggly decal as best as I can manage for the nose

 

[Wurger]

We are glad we could help you Michael.

 

[parsifal]

are my sources correct in saying that the 'trousers' so prominent in the B models were fairly rare in the D series. For the germans Ive read the early "D"s were fitted with the trousers, but they were removed because of weight considerations in early 1942.

That photo in Post 54 seems to confirm the Hungarians followed the German experience and had all but removed the LG fairings by 1943........