Dunkirk massacres

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Commando Order was a secret order issued by Adolf Hitler on October 18, 1942 stating that all commandos found in Europe and Africa should be killed immediately, even if in uniform or if they attempted to surrender. Any commando or small group of commandos or a similar unit, agents, and saboteurs not in uniform, who fell into the hands of the German military forces by some means other than direct combat (through the police in occupied territories, for instance) were to be handed over immediately to the Sicherheitsdienst (SD or Nazi security service). The order made it clear that failure to carry out these orders by any commander or officer would be considered to be an act of negligence punishable under German military law.

Shortly after World War II, at the Nuremberg Trials, the Commando Order was found to be a direct breach of the laws of war, and German officers who carried out illegal executions under the Commando Order were found guilty of a war crime.

Background
The Commando Order alleged violations of the Geneva Conventions by Allied commando troops and cites these violations as justification for the order. It is widely believed that an occurrence at Dieppe and on a small raid on the Channel Island of Sark by the Small Scale Raiding Force (with some men of No. 12 Commando) brought Hitler's rage to a head.

Sark Raid
On the night of 3-4 October, 1942, ten men of the British Small Scale Raiding Force and No. 12 Commando (attached) made an offensive reconnaissance raid on the isle of Sark, Operation Basalt. In line with standard procedure the acquisition of prisoners was required. The raiders broke into a local's house. The occupant of the house, Frances Pittard, proved very informative and advised there were about 20 Germans in the nearby Dixcart Hotel. She also declined an offer to be taken back to England.

In front of the hotel was a long hut like building, apparently unguarded. This annex comprised a corridor and five rooms wherein were five sleeping Germans, none found to be officers. The men were roused and taken outside where after the commandos decided to go on to the hotel and capture more of the enemy. To minimize the guard left with the captives, the commandos tied the prisoners' hands. One prisoner started shouting to alert those in the hotel and was shot dead with a .38 revolver. The enemy now alerted, incoming fire from the hotel became considerable and the raiders elected to return to the beach with the remaining four prisoners, all of whom had been silenced by stuffing their mouths, according to Anders Lassen, with grass. En route to the beach, three prisoners made a break. Whether or not some had freed their hands during the firefight has never been established, nor is it known whether all three broke at the same time. Two are believed to have been shot and one stabbed. The fourth was conveyed safely back to England and provided a gold mine of information. Officially sanctioned German military accounts of the time assert unequivocally that the dead German soldiers were found with their hands bound, and later German military publications make many references to captured Commando instructions ordering the tying of captives' hands behind them, and the use of a particularly painful method of knotting around the thumbs to enable efficient, coercive, single-handed control of the captive.


Dieppe Raid
On August 19, 1942 during this raid, a Canadian brigadier elected (against explicit orders) to take a copy of the operational order ashore.[2] The order was subsequently discovered on the beach by the Germans and found its way to Hitler. Among the dozens of pages of orders was an instruction to 'bind prisoners'. (The orders were for the Canadian forces participating in the raid, and not the commandos.)


German response and escalation
A few days after the Sark raid, the Germans issued a propaganda communiqué implying that at least one prisoner had escaped and two were shot while resisting having their hands tied. They also claimed this 'hand-tying' practice was used at Dieppe. Subsequently, on 9th October, Berlin announced that 1376 Allied prisoners (mainly Canadians from Dieppe), would henceforth be shackled. The British responded with a like shackling of German prisoners in Canada.

This tit-for-tat shackling continued until the Swiss achieved agreement with the British to desist on December 12, and with the Germans some time later after they received further assurances from the British. However, by this time many German camps had abandoned the pointless practice or reduced it to merely leaving a pile of shackles in a prison billet as a token.

On October 7, Hitler personally penned a note in the Wehrmacht daily communiqué:

In future, all terror and sabotage troops of the British and their accomplices, who do not act like soldiers but rather like bandits, will be treated as such by the German troops and will be ruthlessly eliminated in battle, wherever they appear.

The order in effect
On October 18 after much deliberation by High Command lawyers, officers and staff, Hitler issued his Commando Order or Kommandobefehl in secret, with only 12 copies. The following day Army Chief of Staff Alfred Jodl, distributed copies too with an appendix stating that the order was "intended for commanders only and must not under any circumstances fall into enemy hands." The order itself stated that

From now on all men operating against German troops in so-called commando raids, even if they are in uniform, whether armed or unarmed, in battle or in flight, are to be annihilated to the last man.... Even if these individuals on discovery ... give themselves up as prisoners, no pardon is on any account to be given.

Allied Casualties
The Commando Order was invoked to order the death of an unknown number of Allied Special Forces and behind-the-lines operators of the OSS, SOE, and other special forces elements.[citation needed] "Commandos" of these types captured were turned over to German security and police forces and transported to concentration camps for execution. The Gazette citation reporting the awarding of the G.C. to Yeo-Thomas describes this process in detail. The first victims were seven officers of Operation Musketoon, who were shot in Sachsenhausen on the morning of 23rd October 1942. In December 1942 Royal Marine commandos captured during Operation Frankton were executed under this order and further executions were carried out through the remainder of the war.

Legality
The laws of war as accepted by all civilized countries in 1942 were unequivocal on this point: "... it is especially forbidden ... to declare that no quarter will be given". This was established under the Article 23 of the IV Convention – The Laws and Customs of War on Land of the Hague Conventions of 1907.The Geneva Convention of 1929, that Germany had ratified, defined who should be considered a Prisoner of War on capture, that included enemy soldiers in uniform and how they should be treated. The German Commando Order was in direct and deliberate violation of both the customary laws of war and Germany's treaty obligations.

Hitler and his subordinates knew that the order was illegal - that is obvious by the fact it was prepared in only twelve copies and that special measures were ordered to keep it secret. He also knew the order would be unpopular with the professional military, in particular the part of the order that stated that the order would stand even if captured Commandos were in uniform (plainclothes commandos could be treated as insurgents or spies under International Law as the United States Supreme Court explained in ex parte Quirin, and was confirmed in the Hostages Trial). The order included measures designed to force them to obey despite their lack of enthusiasm.

Aftermath
After the war, German officers who carried out illegal executions under the Commando Order were found guilty at war crimes trials, including the Nuremberg Trials. The Commando Order was one of the specifications in the charge against Generaloberst (Colonel-General) Jodl, who was convicted and hanged. Another war crimes trial was held in Brunswick (Braunschweig), Germany, against Colonel-General Nikolaus von Falkenhorst, Supreme Commander of German forces in Norway 1940-44. The latter was held responsible, among other things, for invoking the Commando Order against survivors of the unsuccessful British commando raid against the Vemork heavy water plant at Rjukan, Norway in 1942 (Operation Freshman). He was sentenced to death in 1946, the sentence was later commuted to 20 years' imprisonment, and he was released in 1953 for reasons of health.
 
The Nazis also violated the Geneva Convention when, in early 1944, Hitler issued the Bullet Decree (Kugel Erlass). According to Robert E. Conot, author of "Justice at Nuremberg," the Bullet Decree stipulated that any officer or non-commissioned officer - except British or American - who escaped from a POW camp was to be shipped to Mauthausen concentration camp with the designation "Stufe III" (Third Degree). There they were either to be shot, or speedily starved and worked to death. To questions by the Red Cross or neutral powers, the Wehrmacht was directed to reply that the prisoners had "escaped and not been recaptured."

The Bullet Decree was soon amended to include British soldiers after the "Great Escape" on March 25, 1944 by 80 British, French, Greek, Norwegian, Polish, Belgian and Czech officers of the British Royal Air Force from a POW camp at Sagan in Silesia. It was not against international law for prisoners to escape from a POW camp, and in fact, it was the duty of a POW to try to escape. This was the first successful escape from the Sagan POW camp, although there had been as many as 100 escape tunnels dug in this camp by the prisoners.

On March 28, the order was issued as an adjunct to the Kugel Erlass. These officers retained by the Gestapo - in principle, though not necessarily in practice, "plotters and escape leaders" - were to be transported to Mauthausen concentration camp. "The camp commandant of Mauthausen is to be informed that the prisoners are being handed over under Operation Kugel."

In January 1946, Jean-Frederic Veith, a French prisoner at Mauthausen from April 22, 1943 until April 22, 1945 when he was taken out of the camp by the Red Cross, testified before the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg regarding POWs who were killed at Mauthausen.

The following is a quote from his testimony at Nuremberg in answer to a question by the French prosecutor, M. Dubois:

Certainly I saw prisoners of war. Their arrival at Mauthausen took place, first of all, in front of the political section. Since I was working at the Hollerith, I could watch the arrivals, for the offices faced the parade ground in front of the political section where the convoys arrived. My knowledge of Aktion K [referring to orders to execute all prisoners of war discovered attempting to escape, excluding Americans and British] is due to the fact that I was head of the Hollerith service in Mauthausen, and consequently all the transfer forms from the various camps.

According to a book about the escape, entitled "The Longest Tunnel," by Alan Burgess, the recaptured prisoners never reached Mauthausen. Four of them were sent instead to the Sachsenhausen concentration camp where they were held as hostages, but some of the others were murdered.

By April 13, 1944, fifty of the escapees, who had been recaptured, had been shot along the roadside as they were being transported to Mauthausen. Their bodies were taken to the nearest crematorium where they were cremated and the ashes were sent back to Sagan for burial. Their death certificates read "shot while trying to escape." Names of the 50 escapees were posted in the camp as a warning against future escapes.

Under international law, it is the duty of a POW to try to escape, but following this violation of the Geneva Convention by the Germans in the shooting of the escaped Sagan POWs, the British and American governments relieved their soldiers and airmen of the duty to attempt an escape.

Maurice Lampe, a French resistance fighter who was a prisoner at Mauthausen, testified at the Nuremberg IMT about how 47 British, American and Dutch airmen were brought to Mauthausen on September 6, 1944 and executed under the Kugel Erlass. Lampe told the tribunal that he had been assigned to work in the quarry where he witnessed the airmen being murdered by the SS guards.
 
The following quote from Lampe's testimony at Nuremberg tells the story:

For all the prisoners at Mauthausen, the murder of these men has remained in their minds like a scene from Dante's Inferno. This is how it was done: at the bottom of the steps they loaded stones on the backs of these poor men and they had to carry them to the top. The first journey was made with stones weighing 25 to 30 kilos and was accompanied by blows. Then they were made to run down. For the second journey, the stones were even heavier; and whenever the poor wretches sank under their burden, they were kicked and hit with a bludgeon. Even stones were hurled at them....In the evening when I returned from the gang with which I was then working, the road which led to the camp was a bath of blood....I almost stepped on the lower jaw of a man. Twenty-one bodies were strewn along the road. Twenty-one had died on the first day. The twenty-six others died the following morning....

Jean-Frederic Veith told a similar story. In answer to a question by M. Dubost, the French prosecutor at the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal, Veith testified as follows:

Q. Did you witness the execution of Allied officers who were murdered within 48 hours of their arrival in camp?

A. I saw the arrival of the convoy of the 6th September. I believe that is the one you are thinking of; I saw the arrival of this convoy and the very same afternoon these 47 went down to the quarry dressed in nothing but their shirts and drawers. Shortly after we heard the sound of machine gunfire. I then left the office and passed at the back, pretending I was carrying documents to another office, and with my own eyes I saw these unfortunate people shot down. 19 were executed on the very same afternoon and the remainder on the following morning; later on all the death certificates were marked: "Killed while attempting to escape."

The next day, Veith continued his testimony at Nuremberg, answering more questions put to him by M. Dubost:

Q. Will you give some additional information concerning the execution of the 47 Allied Officers whom you saw shot within 48 hours at camp Mauthausen where they had been brought?

A. Those officers, those parachutists, were shot in accordance with the usual system used whenever prisoners had to be done away with. That is to say, they were forced to work to excess, to carry heavy stones. Then they were beaten, until they took heavier ones; and so on and so forth, until, finally driven to extremity, they turned towards the barbed wire. If they did not do it of their own accord, they were pushed there, or they were beaten until they did so, and the moment they approached it and were perhaps about one metre away from it, they were mown down by machine guns fired by the SS patrols in the miradors. This was the usual system for the "killing for attempted escape" as they afterwards called it.

These 47 men were killed on the afternoon of the 6th and morning of the 7th of September.

Q. How did you know their names?

A. Their names came to me with the official list, because they had all been entered in the camp registers and I had to report to Berlin all the changes in the actual strength of the Hollerith Section. I saw all the rosters of the dead and of the new arrivals.

Q. Did you communicate this list to an official authority?

A. This list was taken by the American official authorities when I was at Mauthausen. I immediately went back to Mauthausen after my liberation, because I knew where the documents were, and the American authorities then had all the lists which we were able to find.

Note that Veith described these POWs as "parachutists" indicating that they were "Commandos" who parachuted into territory that was behind enemy lines with the objective of carrying out sabotage. They were sent to Mauthausen under Hitler's infamous Commando Order, another example of Nazi barbarity and the disregard of the Geneva Convention.

According to William Shirer in his book "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich," the Top-Secret Commando Order, dated October 18, 1942, was one of the documents found by the Allies after the war.


On October 7, 1942, the justification for this order was broadcast by the German Army over the radio, according to Robert E. Conot, who quoted from the broadcast in his book "Justice at Nuremberg":

"In the future all terrorist and sabotage units of the British and their associates who do not act like soldiers but like bandits will be mercilessly exterminated in battle." He (Hitler) directed (General) Jodl to draw up the appropriate order that commandos "regardless whether as soldiers and irrespective of the kind of uniform are to be annihilated to the last man without mercy," since their actions "differ from the basic rules of warfare and [they] thus place themselves outside the rules of warfare." If they gave up, they were to be shot on the spot. "Whoever performs acts of sabotage as a soldier with the idea of surrendering without a fight after the act is successfully completed does not conduct himself as an honorable warrior." Hitler, as he had done in the Commissar Order and similar instances, made himself the unilateral arbiter of the Geneva Convention and declared null and void whatever section was not convenient to him.

In his book, Conot included a quote from the British Handbook of Irregular Warfare, a book that was found on one of the Canadian Commandos who was captured on August 19, 1942 in a battle at Dieppe. According to Conot "Some of the German prisoners taken were handcuffed; and a few, who fell into the hands of the special forces, were trussed up in 'death slings.'" In other words, the German POWs were tied up by the Commandos with a noose around their necks which was attached to their legs, so that if the prisoner stretched out his legs, the noose would tighten and the man would be strangled.

The following quote from the British Handbook is from page 307 of Conot's book "Justice at Nuremberg":

This (book) instructed the commandos "never to give the enemy a chance; the days when we could practice the rules of sportsmanship are over. For the time being every soldier must be a potential gangster...The vulnerable parts of the enemy are the heart, spine and privates. Kick him or knee him as hard as you can in the fork...Remember you are out to kill."

William Shirer mentions the following incident in which British and American Commandos were murdered at Mauthausen, on page 956 of his book, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich":

Some fifteen members of an Anglo-American military mission - including a war correspondent of the Associated Press, and all in uniform - which had parachuted into Slovakia in January 1945 were executed in the Mauthausen concentration camp on the orders of Dr. Ernst Kaltenbrunner, the successor of Heydrich as head of the SD and one of the defendants at Nuremberg. Had it not been for the testimony of the camp adjutant who witnessed their execution, their murder might have remained unknown, for most of the files of the executions at this camp were destroyed.

One of the US Navy Commandos who was captured after a sabotage mission and sent to Mauthausen under Hitler's Commando Order was Lieutenant Jack Taylor.

Lieutenant Taylor testified about the treatment which he and other American POWs received at Mauthausen. The following quote is from the testimony of Lt. Taylor at the Nuremberg IMT:

In October '44, I was the first Allied officer to drop onto Austria. I was captured December 1st, by the Gestapo, severely beaten, ah, even though I was in uniform, severely beaten, and, and, considered as a non-prisoner of war. I was taken to Vienna prison where I was held for four months. When the Russians neared Vienna, I was taken to this Mauthausen concentration lager [camp], an extermination camp, the worst in Germany, where we have been starving and, and beaten and killed, ah, fortunately, my turn hadn't come. Ah, two American officers at least have been executed here. Here is the insignia of one, a U.S. naval officer, and here is his dog tag. Here is the army officer, executed by gas in this lager [camp]. Ah...there were...

[Question: "How many ways did they execute them?"]

Five or six ways: by gas, by shooting, by beating, that is beating with clubs, ah, by exposure, that is standing out in the snow, naked, for 48 hours and having cold water put on them, thrown on them in the middle of winter, starvation, dogs, and pushing over a hundred-foot cliff."

Hard to argue or justify german attrocities on ther basis that they were matching Allied behviours, or in some way could be attributed to "heat of battle" pressures.
 
I hardly think that kind of cold blooded calculated terror cvan be compare3d to the heat of battle murders that occurred on the allied side.

I agree with you, but I do not think we can throw all German soldiers into the same pot. Yes more autrocities were conducted by the Germans (and Japanese and Russians as well), but these autrocities were still done by a minority of the Wehrmacht. And the SS was not the average German soldier.
 
I agree with you, but I do not think we can throw all German soldiers into the same pot. Yes more autrocities were conducted by the Germans (and Japanese and Russians as well), but these autrocities were still done by a minority of the Wehrmacht. And the SS was not the average German soldier.

Agree completely

To their credit, both rommel and Kesselring would have nothing to do with either the secret commando orders, or with the Kugel orders. All prisoners were treated in accordance with the Rules of War and the Geneva Convention.

The majority opinion is that the commando order in its entirety was illegal, however, there are some war crimes legal opinions that maintain that the order was illegal because it was a secret protocol. It could have been legalised if all officers of the wehrmacht had been informaed of its existence, as well as the countr4ies of the opposing armies that were going to suffer under it. i find that interpretation of the law a bit hard to swallow, but it is an alternative view. But even under this scenario, the German treatment of prisoners was unlawful and barbaric. I am gennuinely sorry if I offend anyone by my views on this subject, but I for one never want to forget that part of the war. it was the reason, IMO why Germany had to be absolutely defeated in that war
 
As to give more perspective
One German figure that I have seen puts the number of Soviet PoWs who died in German custody as 3 300 000 and the number of German PoWs who died in Soviet custody as 1 110 000. This is just one set of numbers but probably gives a good indication of the level killing and maltreatment.

Juha
 
Almost forgot this
there was one British PoW camp in Northern Germany/Southern Denmark in which 56 SS PoWs died during summer/early Autumn 45 to hunger and matnutrion. That was such a scandal that there was a Parliament question on issue. Investication reveal that the CO of the camp was a drunk major who had left the running of the camp to his 2nd-in-C, who happened to be a Jew who had took a personal vendetta and denied enough food and shelter from the SS PoWs. There was a military court case against the 2 British officers but I cannot recall the verdict.

Juha
 
As to give more perspective
One German figure that I have seen puts the number of Soviet PoWs who died in German custody as 3 300 000 and the number of German PoWs who died in Soviet custody as 1 110 000. This is just one set of numbers but probably gives a good indication of the level killing and maltreatment.

Juha

My Grandfather was in a Soviet POW camp. He was one of the lucky ones to come home.
 
Parsifal said:
I maintain that there is a world of difference between so-called battlefield massacres, and cold blooded murder. The differnce between the german order, and the commandoes is that what the hell were the commandoes supposed to do with any prisoners that they took.

They were, as regular troops under international law, were supposed to ensure that their prisoners are protected from the time of their capture until their final repatriation.

There is simply no difference. Once you took them as prisoner, you are to maintain their safety. The Commandoes did not play by the rules. In response the Germans neither, when it came to Commandoes. Tough for Commandoes!

BTW, anybody remembers Band of Brothers? There is a brief wiki article of him, too.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66pfbDceMe0
Ronald Speirs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IMHO there`s a huge resemblance between the character of Speirs and a typical Waffen SS menpower. A natural born killer and soldier, kinda predator-like. Neither gives nor asks for quarter. Such is the psychology of war...

I am sure there are many others. Some I found involve American troops in the Ardennes. War is ugly stuff.
Chenogne massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Parsifal said:
Under international law, it is the duty of a POW to try to escape,...

I have never heard of that... kinda questionable IMHO. It would kinda defeat the whole purpose of the PoW conventions.

As to give more perspective
One German figure that I have seen puts the number of Soviet PoWs who died in German custody as 3 300 000 and the number of German PoWs who died in Soviet custody as 1 110 000. This is just one set of numbers but probably gives a good indication of the level killing and maltreatment.

Juha

German records for Soviet PoW deaths are about 1,600 million died in captivity. I seriously doubt there was much 'murder', many simply perished in 1941, when there were a lot of sudden influxes of several hundred thousends of prisoners at one time and they simply died of hunger, exposure to the harsh winter, the Germans having overtaxed their own supply lines at the time, and being unable to feed and cloth their own troops properly, it is somewhat understandable they had little inlcination to feed and cloth Prisoners (who were ideoligically considered inferior bolsheviks anyway) instead of their own troops.

Sorry guys but things are not as simple as we would like them to be. Things are not black and white, but different shades of grey.
 
i think this photos can illustrate how p*** off the russians was with germans invasion in ww2:

sovietphoto11.jpg


IMGP0030.jpg


IMGP0031.jpg


in britain or usa or any other western museum, you dont see nazi flags shown like a trash, a tissue or cloth to clean the floor. you feel the angry and the contempt of russians for their enemy in ww2.

besides the stalinist regim, the russians fought with very angry and hate, because they was almost losing for germany until staligrade and because the german campaing in east was very brutal. its not just about stalin, its also the peoples angry.
 
I]They were, as regular troops under international law, were supposed to ensure that their prisoners are protected from the time of their capture until their final repatriation[/I].

International law is similar to most national codes in progressive democracies, the killing of prisoners whilst under the stress of combat is not classified as murder, or worse, a crime against humanity. It would most likely be classified as manslaughter, which carries a much lower sentence, and that because the courts understand that killing a man under those circumstances has some justification. If the prisoner is endangering the lives of his captors , by calling out, or by trying to escape, appropriate force, including the use of lethal force is justified. In the case of the captured commandos, no resistance was displayed. After they had surrendered, and with no threeat from other opposing forces, they were marched out and killed. That classifies as at least two breaches under International law, the laws of war, the Hague convention, and the Geneva convention. Suffice it to say that for the purposes of this discussion it is just murder


There is simply no difference. Once you took them as prisoner, you are to maintain their safety. The Commandos did not play by the rules. In response the Germans neither, when it came to Commandos. Tough for Commandos!

I know that you are wrong in terms of the International conventions that govern the rules of war. I also think that what you are saying is a moral travesty that in fact supports the criminal behaviours of the Nazis

As outlined above, the law recognizes that there is a difference between a crime committed in the heat of the moment, or with the fear of ones own life in mind, and the cold blooded, calculated act of murdering those that are under your charge, when there is no threat of danger, or emotion involved. This is the difference between murder, self defence, and manslaughter.

It was not tough fpoor the commandos. It was simply a display of the barbaric and murderous nature of those that subscribe to the Nazi creed. The commando order was motivated by the roughhouse tactics of the commandos, WHILST IN COMBAT, and UNDER EXTREME COMBAT CONDITIONS. If these guys had been brought to trial, and the tribunal was a fair and balanced tribunal (which they were not completely), the expected outcome would at worst be a few years in Gaol, and a most likely a not guilty verdict. Those allied soldiers that simply took POWs out the back and shot them, without the threat of combat hanging over them, were guilty of a capital war crime


BTW, anybody remembers Band of Brothers? There is a brief wiki article of him, too.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66pfbDceMe0
Ronald Speirs - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Not interested in movies on a subject like this. Too serious to be trivialised like that

IMHO there`s a huge resemblance between the character of Speirs and a typical Waffen SS manpower. A natural born killer and soldier, kinda predator-like. Neither gives nor asks for quarter. Such is the psychology of war...

The Psychology of war is not about this at all. Tough for sure, able to put up with stresses for sure, but allowing ones personal emotions to interfere with judgment calls is about the worst thing a soldier can allow himself to do. He is ther to achieve the mission, and oby orders, the rules of war and the geneva convention that overrule any order that may be given by your own commanders that appear to contravene that higher order coming from the conventions. thats whay "I was just obeying orders" is no defence".

Ever been under fire. I have (nothing to compare to WWII, but it was real, and it was dangerous, enough to give me some bad dreams for years afterwords). I can tell you that what you find admirable in the "typical SS officer" is about the worst traits you can have in a professional soldier. Any soldier in my unit displaying those sort of characteristics would have been immediately re-assigned. I would not want any gun toting John Wayne types looking after my a*rse


I have never heard of that... kinda questionable IMHO. It would kinda defeat the whole purpose of the POW conventions.

Suggest you read the Hague Convention (1907), and the Rules of War that were developed from them. Finally you should read the Geneva Convention, all of which set out the rights and responsibilities of prisoners and their keepers

German records for Soviet POW deaths are about 1,600 million died in captivity. I seriously doubt there was much 'murder', many simply perished in 1941, when there were a lot of sudden influxes of several hundred thousands of prisoners at one time and they simply died of hunger, exposure to the harsh winter, the Germans having overtaxed their own supply lines at the time, and being unable to feed and cloth their own troops properly, it is somewhat understandable they had little inclination to feed and cloth Prisoners (who were ideologically considered inferior Bolsheviks anyway) instead of their own troops.

The German records you are relying on are clearly wrong. Estimates do vary, but they are conservatively placed at over 3 million (some say as high as 6-8 million). And the front line units actually took quite good care of new prisoners. The atrocities generally didn't start until they (the prisoners were handed over to the rear units. Most were starved alright, but right in the middle of Germany. They were also shot, burned, gassed, stoned, torn apart by dogs, used for target practice, worked to death, and a whole range of other detestable treatments. These are not my observations.. They are well documented and pr oven in courts and tribunals. Furthermore they are also admitted in the war guilt clauses of the various post war peace treaties that Germany signed in the late 40s and 1950s. Mind you, the Russians were no better in their treatment of German prisoners, perhaps just a little less smug about it.

Facts are that persons working in the name of Germany committed the most heinous crimes against humanity. These crimes make any allied transgressions pale into insignificance. Even those of us who admire German military prowess and achievement ought never let ourselves forget, or try to belittle or justify that which cannot be defended, or written down as something insignificant.


Sorry guys but things are not as simple as we would like them to be. Things are not black and white, but different shades of grey.


To me, with my legal background they are clear enough. There were war crimes by all belligerents, but the Germans and the Japanese) were the only countries to adopt it as national policy. The sheer scale of German atrocity is so large as to defy reason. The difference between German guilt and allied guilt is incomparably greater for the Germans.
 
Jug

Try losing 13.4 million people to an enemy and then show sympathetic you are to their military symbols. The Russians in my view have earnt the right to trash a few Nazi symbols
 
My Grandfather was in a Soviet POW camp. He was one of the lucky ones to come home.

My stepfather was ther as well 371 st Infantry Div he was a Machine Gunner . Working in a weapon pit with his trusty hiwi in support, was shot in the arm by a Russian sniper, The Hiwi, a Ukrainian, and a huge man, just picked up the MG and mowed down his countrymen who were advancing. After the fighting stopped, he just looked at Max (my stepfather), made sure he was okay, and then just walked off, never to be see again.

Max was flown out of the cauldron the next day, AFIK. One of the few as well
 
Jug

Try losing 13.4 million people to an enemy and then show sympathetic you are to their military symbols. The Russians in my view have earnt the right to trash a few Nazi symbols

agreed. that what i think so. you see that images, you understand what happened there.

almost 180 divisions or 70% of german army, isnt that true ?

"they took the bull by the horns"

wasnt easy... wouldnt be easy for anybody else, but they defeat the most advanced and the most eficient army of ww2 in russian soil. and hitler orders was very clear, to exterminate soviet union, not just defeat them. the war in east europe was a genocide.

then they stopped the germans advance in staligrade and marched until berlin.

here in west, we dont give the appropriate value to this feat. maybe because stalin, cold war, iron curtain... etc. russia still considered more enemy than friend for many, even after the fall of soviet union.
 
Kurfürst
Quote:"German records for Soviet PoW deaths are about 1,600 million died in captivity. I seriously doubt there was much 'murder', many simply perished in 1941, "

Well, first of all, partly true but there is for ex some callous comments of Göring on the situation of Soviet PoWs from 1941 which clearly shows that the attitude of at least Göring on the situation was clearly contrary to what international law required. And many of Soviet prisoners perished in camps far behind front line in 42-45, and your excuses didn't cover these cases.

And also the number of 1 110 000 is much higher than that of the official Soviet number but it incl for ex those shot out of hand and those shot during and right after their initial interrogations by NKVD or Soviet military intelligence and those who perish during long marches to PoW camps. IIRC the official Soviet/Russian figure is something like 430 000 German PoWs died in their captivity, most again of hunger and diseases.

Of course the situation wasn't purely black and white for ex what happened to many soldiers of the 6th SS Mountain Div early 45 was tragic but Germans and Soviets handling of PoWs were different from that of how Western Allied treated their PoWs. You seemingly wanted to think diffenrentry, that your choice.

Juha
 
There were war crimes by all belligerents, but the Germans and the Japanese were the only countries to adopt it as national policy.

I think that there says alot about the difference between tragedies on both sides.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back