JugBR
Staff Sergeant
wasnt in crete, where allies shoots in german parachutists, when those was downing or trapped in trees ?
Dunkirk massacres
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JugBR
On Crete a platoon of German paratroopers put against wall surrendered men of a British HAA battery and shot them all (aronud 96). After that British didn't give a secret order that all paras should be shot because they didn't play by the rules but changed their ToE so that also men of HAA (heavy anti-aircraft) units got a personal weapon, before that HAA battery had only a Bren or 2 and a dozen or 2 rifles.
Juha
On Crete a platoon of German paratroopers put against wall surrendered men of a British HAA battery and shot them all (aronud 96). After that British didn't give a secret order that all paras should be shot because they didn't play by the rules but changed their ToE so that also men of HAA (heavy anti-aircraft) units got a personal weapon, before that HAA battery had only a Bren or 2 and a dozen or 2 rifles.
Juha
On Crete (just like in all theatres of the war) attrocities were commited by both sides.
Germany committed great attrocities, but we can not lump all of the Wehrmacht into one pile. The great attrocities were conducted by a minority of the Wehrmacht. Not that it makes it any better. I am not trying to justify anything.
Japan was the same way, except I think it might be a bit worse because of the whole honor creed thingie...
Russia was just as bad as the Germans (even before the Germans invaded Russia), Stalin was committing atrocities against his own people as well as the Polish and his occupied territories, especially after the war was over. I think a lot of people forget that the Russians were pretty bad as well.
The US and British as well comitted attrocities, certainly not on the scale the other 3 parties above did and it certainly was not per orders. Again a minority doing the bad things.
Germany committed great attrocities, but we can not lump all of the Wehrmacht into one pile. The great attrocities were conducted by a minority of the Wehrmacht. Not that it makes it any better. I am not trying to justify anything.
Japan was the same way, except I think it might be a bit worse because of the whole honor creed thingie...
Russia was just as bad as the Germans (even before the Germans invaded Russia), Stalin was committing atrocities against his own people as well as the Polish and his occupied territories, especially after the war was over. I think a lot of people forget that the Russians were pretty bad as well.
The US and British as well comitted attrocities, certainly not on the scale the other 3 parties above did and it certainly was not per orders. Again a minority doing the bad things.
Hello Adler
Quote: "Russia was just as bad as the Germans"
I don't agree with that, Soviet behaviour was bad, even very bad, but they didn't have extermination policies as Germans had. Now about 1/3 of Volgan Germans and of Chechens perished during they very brutal deportations to Siberia/Kazastan, no excuses for that, but they were not exterminated as races and SU could have done that if it had wished because it was a victor. Now if Germans had won, I would say that there would not have been many European Jews or Gipsies around in 1950. And my guess is that even in PoWs Germans treated Soviet PoWs worse than Soviets German PoWs, but that is only a guess and I admit that the difference wasn't very big.
And I know that if Finns had lost the Winter War the Katyn solution was reserved up some 40 000 Finns, out of population of 3,5 million. So most of our intelligence would have been destroyed.
Juha
Quote: "Russia was just as bad as the Germans"
I don't agree with that, Soviet behaviour was bad, even very bad, but they didn't have extermination policies as Germans had. Now about 1/3 of Volgan Germans and of Chechens perished during they very brutal deportations to Siberia/Kazastan, no excuses for that, but they were not exterminated as races and SU could have done that if it had wished because it was a victor. Now if Germans had won, I would say that there would not have been many European Jews or Gipsies around in 1950. And my guess is that even in PoWs Germans treated Soviet PoWs worse than Soviets German PoWs, but that is only a guess and I admit that the difference wasn't very big.
And I know that if Finns had lost the Winter War the Katyn solution was reserved up some 40 000 Finns, out of population of 3,5 million. So most of our intelligence would have been destroyed.
Juha
Seriously, I think you need to do some research...
I am talking about Russians being killed by Russians. Stalin exterminated his own people on a level very similiar to what Hitler did.
On top of that they also had brutal policies toward the Poles and other eastern european countries after they took it over.
An estimated 20 million people died due to Stalins policies including 6 million Russians, 2.5 million Ukranians, 1.5 million Poles and 1.5 million Kasakhs.
An estimated 3-4 million women were raped by soviet soldiers (this was not soviet policy but it was tolerated) including aprox 2 million Germans (my wifes grandmother was one of them, she was 7), 50,000 Hungarians, 1200 Yugoslavians, aprox 10,000 Slovkians, and aprox 100,000 Poles.
Lets see known mass graves in Russia (all of them people killed by Russian institutuions such as the NKVD):
Bykivnia - containing an estimated 120,000 - 225,000 corpses.
Kurapaty - estimations range from 30,000 to 200,000 bodies found.
Butovo - over 20,000 confirmed killed.
Sandarmokh - over 9,000 bodies discovered.
Russia certainly was just as bad as the Germans. Again I am not saying the German war crimes were not terrible or any less than the Russians, but to say the Russians were not as bad, is absured.
parsifal
Colonel
Russian treatment of prisoners and minorities was criminal as well. The only difference i would make, and its a rather academic one, is that the russians also treated their own soldiers pretty badly. Try deserting in the Russian army in WWII and see what happens to you. The Russians just had poor regard to all life, and all humanity, whereas the Nazis wanted to conquer the world, live like royalty and murder everyone except those that agreed with them. So at least the russians were not selective on who they killed (well not quite as selective)
parsifal
Colonel
Adler, I will have to check more carefully, but i thought the murdersw of german paratroopers on the island were mostly carried out by th cretan civialns. What they (the cretans) did, was horrific. Im trying to remember exactly what.
Shooting at a paratropper whilst he is still airborne, but armed is not a warcrime, its just war. I also believe that several groups of Paratroopers were shot, because there were not enogh transports to take them. This would qualify for manslaughter. The Germans were pressuring the allies, and the allies responded with something illegal, but understandable. I will grant you it depends on the circumstances. If the British that shot the Germans were not under immediate threat, and they went ahead and shot the prisoners anyway, they committed murder.....
Oh I am not argueing that...
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
How many Germans were taken prisoner at Stalingrad and how many returned?
Hello Adler
Quote: " Seriously, I think you need to do some research..."
Frankly, I have passed 3 university courses on history of the Baltic states with excellent knowledge and one was History of Baltic States from 1918 to 1950. I'm well aware what the Soviet rule meant. And because Baltic people had had rather high standard of living and had had many contacts to West during their independence 1918-40 and were non-Slavs they were handled more harshly than many other people under Soviet rule. On the other hand they have not been Soviet citizen during the worst years of terror.
"Lets see known mass graves in Russia (all of them people killed by Russian institutuions such as the NKVD)"
We are here in Finland rather well aware of those mass graves, especially of those near St Petersburgh and in Karelia.
"Russia certainly was just as bad as the Germans. Again I am not saying the German war crimes were not terrible or any less than the Russians, but to say the Russians were not as bad, is absured."
Now I was thinking WWII years and even looking longer period I would say that it isn't absurd to claim that Russians were not as bad as Germans it is just on depends one's POV how one judges those 2 most barbaric European systems of 20th century. Ie how to value the liquidation of races and other minorities (homosexuals, handicap and mentally ill at least) vs liquidation of certain classes (bourgeois, wealthy farmers etc), especially because liquidation of a class doesn't necessary mean the need of kill all members of the class. I myself am a bit ambivalent on which was worst but tended to think that Nazism was worse mostly because of its tendency to exterminate "foreign" subjects and also because I think it more irrational with all those master race, Führer principle etc. But if somebody judges differently, I can understand that.
Juha
Quote: " Seriously, I think you need to do some research..."
Frankly, I have passed 3 university courses on history of the Baltic states with excellent knowledge and one was History of Baltic States from 1918 to 1950. I'm well aware what the Soviet rule meant. And because Baltic people had had rather high standard of living and had had many contacts to West during their independence 1918-40 and were non-Slavs they were handled more harshly than many other people under Soviet rule. On the other hand they have not been Soviet citizen during the worst years of terror.
"Lets see known mass graves in Russia (all of them people killed by Russian institutuions such as the NKVD)"
We are here in Finland rather well aware of those mass graves, especially of those near St Petersburgh and in Karelia.
"Russia certainly was just as bad as the Germans. Again I am not saying the German war crimes were not terrible or any less than the Russians, but to say the Russians were not as bad, is absured."
Now I was thinking WWII years and even looking longer period I would say that it isn't absurd to claim that Russians were not as bad as Germans it is just on depends one's POV how one judges those 2 most barbaric European systems of 20th century. Ie how to value the liquidation of races and other minorities (homosexuals, handicap and mentally ill at least) vs liquidation of certain classes (bourgeois, wealthy farmers etc), especially because liquidation of a class doesn't necessary mean the need of kill all members of the class. I myself am a bit ambivalent on which was worst but tended to think that Nazism was worse mostly because of its tendency to exterminate "foreign" subjects and also because I think it more irrational with all those master race, Führer principle etc. But if somebody judges differently, I can understand that.
Juha
Njaco
on Stalingrad PoWs, I cannot remember maybe it 86 000 German PoWs of which 15 000 or 5 000 returned to Germany. But as I wrote earlier one German study estimated that 3,3 million Soviet PoWs died in German captivity and 1 110 000 Germans in Soviet captivity.
Juha
on Stalingrad PoWs, I cannot remember maybe it 86 000 German PoWs of which 15 000 or 5 000 returned to Germany. But as I wrote earlier one German study estimated that 3,3 million Soviet PoWs died in German captivity and 1 110 000 Germans in Soviet captivity.
Juha
JugBR
Staff Sergeant
yes, agree with you, also, remember the ribbentrop-molotov pact wheres was estipulated that poland should be shared between ussr and germany, 50% for each. not just germany invaded poland. russians invaded poland in sptember 17.
also, before germany invades poland, thats true that ussr already had invaded other eastern coutries, but nobody declared war against russia.
then comes the barbarossa operation and germany almost could wipe out stalin regim, but at that time ussr was already an allie of britons and americans. the defeats at staligrate and kursk, among others was very decisive for the change of the war in europe and for the fall of hitler, in the logic of that time, the red army violations againt german POW´s, was a grant of a more easy victory against germany. and wasnt easy at all anyway !
You see it does not matter who is being exterminated. Genocide is genocide...
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
The mortality rate of American POWs in German prison camps was around 5%. In Japanese prison camps it was around 40%. The highest mortality rate in one month in a Civil War prison was in February 1863, at camp Douglas, near Chicago where 10% of the Confederate prisoners held died. At Midway, captured US pilots were interrogated and then thrown overboard, some weighted so they would sink. In Omar Bradley's book, he plainly stated that few prisoners were taken in the early going in Normandy. Recently read a book by Rick Atkinson on the Italian campaign and there were several instances of US troops escorting both Italian and German POWs to the rear, shooting them down in cold blood. My uncle in USN in the Pacific from the beginning said it was common practise to send a ship with depth charges to kill Japanese survivors in the water. That may have been because they would not surrender and be taken on board. I have seen film of Japanese swimmers being machine gunned. Certainly does not excuse systematic murder by Japanese and Nazis but does put our treatment of terrorists at Abu Graib and Gitmo in perspective though.
Adler
Quote: "You see it does not matter who is being exterminated. Genocide is genocide..."
Of course!
Renrich
IIRC there were at least 2 courtmartial cases because of killing of PoWs by US troops in Sicily. In one case a Lt got one year and was stripped from his rank and in other a sergeant got 4 years and was stripped from his rank. When the punisments were made public there was a outcry in States because of the NCO had got heavier punushment than the officer, the cases were different ie 2 separate cases of killing PoWs. Now the solution was that the punishment of the NCO was amended to one year in prison. He was later KIA in Europe after serving his term.
Juha
Quote: "You see it does not matter who is being exterminated. Genocide is genocide..."
Of course!
Renrich
IIRC there were at least 2 courtmartial cases because of killing of PoWs by US troops in Sicily. In one case a Lt got one year and was stripped from his rank and in other a sergeant got 4 years and was stripped from his rank. When the punisments were made public there was a outcry in States because of the NCO had got heavier punushment than the officer, the cases were different ie 2 separate cases of killing PoWs. Now the solution was that the punishment of the NCO was amended to one year in prison. He was later KIA in Europe after serving his term.
Juha
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Thanks Juha, that may have been for the incidents in Atkinson's book.
