Georgia and Russia at war.

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stasoid said:
Well, most of Lenin's Politbureau members and other October Revolution masterminds were Jewish, so, now what? To blame them for all communist's attrocities? Probably not. In fact, communists didnt have nationalities, they simply divided people by classes and acted by the book written by Lenin and Marx.
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karl marx was jewish, by the way. also hitler had the aidea of international jewish conspiracy over comunism.

you can call me ignorant, but i dont think lenin was a evil like stalin was. the october revolution as i readed was in some points cruel, but the situation before that was even worst and i dont know if the western powers supports the white army also make the process more bloody.

but i think lenin in overal wasnt a evil guy, you could think he wasnt a hero, but he was much better than czar.

i know its just silly input to some kind of people a kind of behavior. its not because stalin was georgian that all georgians will be little stalins, for gods shakes the world would be in danger then.

i just use stalin example to show that soviet union was a project of many people from many countries, not just russians, and the bad things like torture, like repression, etc... also was not made just by russians in soviet union.

because i think some people could have the idea: aw, the georgia, ukraine, etc... became independent so automatically they are uncharged of any responsability about the bad things of soviet union, now they are democratic nations and all the bad things we blame on russia...

like... georgians, ukranians, polaks, eastern germans, etc... didnt tortured, didnt repressed, didnt make anithing bad. just russians did. instead to everybody tries to assume their responsabilities, they just blame all on russia. wich is not fair.
 
If Lenin had lived longer his atrocities could have been worse than Stalin.

At least Stalin gave women and children mock trials before executing them.
 
bigZ said:
If Lenin had lived longer his atrocities could have been worse than Stalin.

At least Stalin gave women and children mock trials before executing them.
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same thing happened in french revolution, its allways happends when theres a internal struggle in a country.

i just think lenin was better than czar, because in czar times the repression was even greater and the poor people usually havent any hope of social improvement. im not talking lenin was the best leader in the world, but he wouldnt win the struggle if the russians was happy with the czar.
 
Ramirezzz said:
firing with MLRS at the city districts is a proper way to keep order?

Interesting that the Czech president Klaus unlike his East European colleagues has recently heavely critisized Georgian goverment and the European approach at the conflict as whole.
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I didn't say it's the propper way to keep order, I have just stated that they were trying to keep it.

As for Klaus, I can see some points in his opinions, but most of it is self-centric statements anyway. If you look at his speech, you can count ten times more word "I" and "me" than the words Gerogia and Russia altogether. :D

I'm just implying that this is another stage of balancing the influence of Russia against "the rest" on the Asian-European border.
 
Gorbachev, says Russia had no choice.

The last soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev says georgian president is a lier and russia had o choice but respnds the georgian attacks over ossetia:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSd_FNhZEZs

man he is very old since last time i saw him, early 90´s, but still very conscient and very inteligent person. Most part of low profile comunists still hating him because he implodes USSR, but the time shows he was right, and another good example, how wrong are the western powers policies, gorbachev had no support of ANY western country to his attempt of democratization and moderate change ussr to a free and capitalist society.

there was a coup supported by western powers and yeltsin baceme the new president of russia. he sinks the country, and the nato sings victory - oh we won the cold war !!! russia is defeated !!! - nuclear proliferation, the grow of russian mafia, political issues over former ussr republics... the prize of NATO´s superb and arrogance over gorbachev´s plan for a carefull political change.

also that same superb blinds the western leaders for the fact that you cant deal with the former ussr republics without deal with russia. because russia is the most stable country in the region and the strongest power.

could that conflict had been usefull to show that ?
 
JugBR

Quote: "gorbachev had no support of ANY western country to his attempt of democratization and moderate change ussr to a free and capitalist society."

Now that is a very interesting interpretion on history when one remember the support gave to Gorba and the fact that according to one of Gorba's statements free elections were BS and according to other he insisted that he was still a communist.

Quote:"there was a coup supported by western powers.."

Now can you name the Western Powers that supported that failed coup by Communist Party hard liners????

Juha
 
The caucasus is and has always been a melting pot of cultures.

I am certain that nobody here can give a stisfying explenation but I am looking forward to read doctoral thesises in c. 30 years to this topic.
Seriously, not everything is known, understood and accessable today and I have kept my doubting habit to everything crying around without a proper distance in time and a better understanding of the sources.
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
How did the US and NATO meddle along Russia's borders. If Russias former satelites wish to cozy up to the west that is there god given right. They are a soverign nation and Russia has not right to interfere in that either.
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Hello D.A.I.G.

The main reason for the eastern countries (Former Block countries) to embrace NATO is the greed and hope for $$$ and not fear of Russia. NATO is fully aware of this and takes the advantage of giving them the outlook and partial support by upgrading their Armed Forces, or even an EU membership (Many, many $$$).

Both NATO and the former Russian republics are fully aware of this and use the same "motivation" which ends in NATO's favor, and resulting in a direct military buildup at Russia's borders. Russia simply doesn't have the $$ to buy or attract friends and as such gets more and more pissed off.

Everybody involved knows that Russia doesn't have the slightest military conventional capability to attack anyone successfully besides midgets like Georgia – meaning total occupation of a country such as the Ukraine – or a totally utopist scenario such as an attack on Poland or any other former Block country. At the end this "Georgia scenario" is exactly what happens and once Putin points at his nukes NATO and the US weasel into their holes and resort to the usual diplomatic blah blah – economic sanctions, embargo and probably telling Putin that he will not receive a birthday telegram.

Now how much frustration does NATO need to impose on Russia in order for the military high command or the Russian government to press the button (only alternative besides resignation), especially after a Russian orgy and Vodka intoxicated bears in uniforms?

Anti - missile shield against – Iran? and rouge states or rather Russia? I am sure the Russians know the answer and keep regarding it as a further provocation.

You would be reacting blind to politics in this world by saying, that Russia has no right to interfere in other countries, or you would be forwarding double standards in regards to the US (constantly interfering in other countries since a hundred years) and Russia's or any other countries doings in the past centuries.

Regards
Kruska
 
Juha said:
JugBR

Quote: "gorbachev had no support of ANY western country to his attempt of democratization and moderate change ussr to a free and capitalist society."

Now that is a very interesting interpretion on history when one remember the support gave to Gorba and the fact that according to one of Gorba's statements free elections were BS and according to other he insisted that he was still a communist.

Quote:"there was a coup supported by western powers.."

Now can you name the Western Powers that supported that failed coup by Communist Party hard liners????

Juha
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gorbachev was the most responsible for the democratization of russia, former ussr republics and the eastern iro curtain countries:

1985 gorbachev announces the two programs of his government: the glasnost(transparency) and the perestroika(rebuilding):

he bring the red troops in afghanistan back to ussr.
negotiate with usa a decrease of nuclear spendings.
do not interfere on eastern countries.

1988 gorbachev announces ussr will quit the bejnev douctrin, then all the western countries could have democratic governments if they wanted. its was called sinatra douctrin.

this led the peacefull revolutions of eastern countries. the only exception was romenia.

about the coup d´etat you right, its my interpretation of history. but the fact that the coup´d etet was good for yeltisn, who was supported by usa, you cant doubt.
 
I find the idea of threatening Russia laughable.

Only a full scale war will make Putin take notice.

Unless NATO is willing to march down Red Square then it is all bluster.

Western Europes gas comes from Russia and we are proper screwed if they turn off the taps. As said before, you don't need MiGs when you got a hand on the plugs.

Underestimating Russian will has proven a folly. They still have a nuclear, chemical and biological threat to make the eyes water. A technical supeiority is meaningless against such a foe.
 
JugBR said:
gorbachev was the most responsible for the democratization of russia, former ussr republics and the eastern iro curtain countries:

1988 gorbachev announces ussr will quit the bejnev douctrin, then all the western countries could have democratic governments if they wanted. its was called sinatra douctrin.
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Gorbachev was weak in global politics, too naive, I would say. He was outplayed by more experienced and pragmatic western leaders. He took the blame on starting the Cold War (what an idiot) and because of that he didnt ask enything in exchange of the soviet troops withdrawal from Eastern Europe. He should have demanded those countries to stay neutral for another 50 or something years, instead he screwed things up completely jepardizing his country's security.
 
stasoid said:
Gorbachev was weak in global politics, too naive, I would say. He was outplayed by more experienced and pragmatic western leaders. He took the blame on starting the Cold War (what an idiot) and because of that he didnt ask enything in exchange of the soviet troops withdrawal from Eastern Europe. He should have demanded those countries to stay neutral for another 50 or something years, instead he screwed things up completely jepardizing his country's security.
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i think mikha had good will, the others dont. he wants so save the east europe from a crisis, the nato just want to won a cold war.
 
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