German or Nazis?

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by v2, Jun 14, 2015.

  1. v2

    v2 Well-Known Member

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    At May, 20th, 75 years ago, German Nazis brought to the newly built Auschwitz concentration camp a group of 728 Polish political prisoners from the prison in Tarnów. This date is considered to be the day when the camp began to operate.
    It is estimated that around 75,000 Polish political prisoners were murdered in Auschwitz by the Germans. On the whole, during WW2, the Germans murdered around six million Polish citizens, half of which were Jewish and the other half were Catholic.
    Today we are witnessing the rewriting of history, as the victims, namely the Polish people, are being blamed for the Nazi crimes which were perpetrated by the German people during WW2.
    US president Barack Obama called the German built concentration camps on Polish soil "Polish death camps", while the head of the FBI Blamed Poles and other nationalities for the crimes of the Nazis.
    In Europe the French President, François Hollande, called the German people "victims of the Nazis", and very recently the German parliament thanked the allies for "liberating" Germany from the Nazis.
    Here's a reminder of just who exactly the Nazis were.
     

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  2. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    A touchy subject but I understand what you are saying V2. You cannot rewrite history just to be PC. It is what it is and to say different is a crime in itself.



    Geo
     
  3. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    The things listed in second quote I can swallow (not lightly), the ones in the 1st quote I cannot - if true it's really outrageous.
     
  4. pbehn

    pbehn Well-Known Member

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    The defeat of Nazi Germany allowed all other countries in western Europe to indulge themselves in the fantasy that they never had any sympathy or sympathisers with the Nazi cause. Laughably Italy invaded Africa under what it now calls its "war of occupation", the French set up its Vichy administration and even Austria, Adolphs homeland somehow never had anything to do with anything remotely "Nazi"
     
  5. gumbyk

    gumbyk Well-Known Member

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    Lets not forget that Nazi's were to be found in every country at the time.

    German_American_Bund_NYWTS.jpg

    The National Socialist type of movement from which Nazism originated could (and still can) be found anywhere you look. I think, at its height, Nazism was bigger than just Germany.

    As for the allies liberating the German population. I have no doubt in my mind that a number of them were liberated. Living under a tyrannical dictator tends to make people fall into line, even if they don't agree with him.
     
  6. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    The Nazi's in the USA amounted to nothing. They were roundly hated and despised by nearly everyone.
     
  7. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

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    Not entirely sure the Duquesne spy ring "amounted to nothing". Some of the info they are credited with obtaining and passing to Germany seems pretty harmful to British, if not American, war interests.
     
  8. gumbyk

    gumbyk Well-Known Member

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    The point was more that Nazis were more than just German...
     
  9. pbehn

    pbehn Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, at the time there was a European and possibly world wide ideological conflict between Fascism and Communism. Hitlers ideas certainly had supporters in 1930s UK even in the mainstream national press. If people argue that France Italy Belgium and the Netherlands only found out what Naziism meant when it was too late then you must accept the same argument for the German population. The Nazis are also referred to as Fascists which is an italian term, I have no idea how Italy is allowed to walk away from the movement, Mussolini DEMANDED to be allowed to attack the UK during the Battle of Britain. France started rounding up Jews for deportation without being asked. I am British not German and make no apology for the Nazis or what happened to them but it sticks in my craw how so many who were obvious sympathisers not only had a cushy war but built successful political careers after the war. I worked in Europe for 15 years between 1990 and 2014 the most overtly and openly anti semitic were certainly not the Germans.
     
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  10. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    #10 nuuumannn, Jun 15, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2015
    There were many non-nazi Germans before the war that felt exactly the same way and thought that the NSDAP too would amount to nothing. Underestimating how devious the nazis could be cost the lives of millions. Their ability to rally support by playing on basic fears was a powerful weapon that they used to devastating effect and it gained them plenty of support world wide. This also explains how even today nazi parties still exist in many societies. Nazism isn't dead, sadly and it is not a uniquely German thing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism
     
  11. michaelmaltby

    michaelmaltby Well-Known Member

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    Austria got virtually a free pass at the end of WW2 ... although leaders like Adolph and Herman were Austrians.
     
  12. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    There is too much generalising of the term 'Nazi' to cover other right wing nationalist organisations going on in this thread. There were many such across Europe, like our own British Union of Fascists, but these were not Nazis any more than the Italian fascists were.

    All Germans were obviously not Nazis, but they lived in a Nazi state where it took courage that most people, from wherever they come, don't have in order to stick their heads over the parapet. Neither were all Nazis Germans. The Nazi movement was 100% German.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  13. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    Not all Nazis were German, not all Germans were Nazis. The Nazi party was one of many German political parties, but it happened to get power through a quirk of history and used the apparatus of state to force itself on the people of Germany and Europe. Ultimately if found many collaborators throughout Europe and in the West, so the OP is not being 100% honest with the situation. There were many Germans there were Nazis, but the reality is that the Nazis were only ever a minority of Germans and they took over Germany; modern Germany is right to say they were liberated from their government and a awful regime that they really didn't have a say putting into power. Looking at the last free election in 1932 saw that they got a minority of the overall votes, with left parties combined getting over 50%; Hitler was appointed to the head of a minority government with the implicit goal of destroying the Left in Germany by its president, Hindenburg. You cannot honestly say the Germans were Nazis, but you can say some Germans were Nazis and forced the rest to go along or else. Its not a mystery why they did when 3.5 million Germans spent time in prisons/concentration camps for anti-regime activities:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance_to_Nazism
     
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  14. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    #14 stona, Jun 16, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
    The 'quirk of history' that brought the Nazis to power was 37.4% of the electorate voting for them in 1932 and then 43.9% (more than 17 million Germans) voting for them in 1933. Any idea that the Nazi party somehow hi-jacked the electorate is revisionism of the most insidious kind. It didn't need to, it was the most popular party in Germany.

    The Germans only became victims as the war ended and then post war. German minorities, notably in Czechoslovakia and Poland but also other 'eastern' European states suffered considerably. Their treatment was not unlike that previously meted out by the Nazi state to other nations during the war. These Germans were not victims of the Nazis but other nationalistic groups in territories that the Germans had occupied and/or conquered. Other Germans certainly were victimised by the Allied armies, most notably the Soviet Union's, but others were not blameless.

    I absolutely refute the idea that the German people were victims of the Nazi party. They took their cake and tried to eat it, it just didn't work out the way that those millions of voters had all hoped or assumed. This does not make the violence perpetrated against German civilians okay, neither does it justify what we would now call the ethnic cleansing of eastern territories, but the German people have to shoulder a large part of the responsibility for what happened. The ethnic cleansing of 3.5 million Germans from the roughly 25% of German territory forfeit at the end of the war was referred to at Potsdam as "orderly and humane population transfer", but a blind eye was turned to the methods used to carry this out.

    Steve
     
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  15. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_November_1932

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_von_Hindenburg#The_Machtergreifung
    Also its not like the Nazis were shy about the fact that they did not come to power by democratic means, they called their rise the Machtergreifung, the seizure of power:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Seizure_of_Power

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany#Nazi_seizure_of_power
    The 1933 election was rigged:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933
     
  16. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    The Nazis bullied their way into power, but even for the voters that did vote for him did so on the message of economic revitalization, ending the treaty of versailles, and fighting communism in Germany. They did not vote for war, genocide, or pretty much most of the horrible stuff Hitler did. He talked constantly about being a man of peace and wanting to avoid war, just to make Germany strong again and end the economic suffering caused by the ToV and Depression, while ensuring the communists didn't try to overthrown the government yet again. Its not like they knew what Hitler had in store, he kept that pretty well hidden and in the early years had a lot of international acclaim for being a 'man of peace'.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Lloyd_George#Appeasement_of_Germany
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#Rise_to_power:_1925.E2.80.931933
     
  17. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    What's your point? That somehow the Germans didn't vote for the NSDAP? In the UK we just got a Conservative government who polled 36.9% of the vote, slightly less than the NSDAP in 1933. Nobody has suggested that the Conservative party has not been duly elected to form a government.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
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  18. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    #18 wiking85, Jun 16, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2015
    2/3rds of Germans didn't vote for Hitler and had him forced on them by an elite clique trying to cling to power, who were then overthrown by Hitler after getting them to agree to the Enabling Act. The UK and German electoral systems are different and got a different result. Whatever the minority of voters that did go for the Nazis in 1932 were thinking, they did not want what ended up happening, which is why when Hitler declared war on Poland even pretty anti-German journalists like William Shirer noted that the German people were despondent and didn't bother to show up to Hitler's speeches.

    And hasn't there been protests in Britain precisely against the Conservative government because of the election system?
     
  19. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    But at least a third of Germans did vote for the NSDAP. Somewhere around 30% of the vote will typically win a party power, even as the main party in a coalition in elections with proportional representation, in democracies around the world. Parties have formed governments with considerably less.
    Two thirds of the British electorate did not vote for the Conservative party, but that's what we got to form our government. It's how a democracy works, irrelevant in Germany post 1933, but relevant in the 1933 elections.

    The German people who became victims after the war, not just the 3.5 million at whose ethnic cleansing the Allies connived, but the estimated 12 million ejected from eastern Europe (at least 250,000 died) were also not victims of the Nazis. They were victims of other nations whom they had oppressed in the name of the Nazi party. The vast majority, but it would be foolish to suppose all, were entirely innocent victims.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  20. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    But again the 1/3d that did vote for the Nazis were either doing it as a protest vote, for his policies on welfare that were not in the context of international communism, ending versailles, no other option, etc. They weren't voting for war and Hitler kept his policies more focused on fixing what was wrong in Germany rather than fixating on racial issues or external expansion. Ultimately Hindenburg chose the Nazis and gave them unlimited power with the Enabling Act, not the German people, so trying to characterize the majority of Germans as getting what they deserved when Hitler did what he did is just bunk and frankly bigoted.
     
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