German or Nazis?

[stona]

They didn't vote for a war, the people who voted for Blair's Labour party didn't vote for an Iraq war and have more reason to be surprised than a German who voted for the NSDAP. The Nazis were surprisingly frank about many other objectives, including the future of the democratic process in Germany. I don't characterise the Germans as 'getting what they deserved', in fact I said that whatever was done in their name did not justify the abuses they later suffered. I said that the Germans had to shoulder the responsibility for what they did.
I don't see too many unhappy German faces in the enormous crowds as the victory over France was being celebrated. They might not have voted for a war, but to imagine that the initial successes (and the Anschluss with Austria) were not greeted with enthusiasm by a majority of German people would be naïve.
The German equivalent of mass observation shows that the first real shock to German morale on the home front was not, as the British fondly imagine, set backs in North Africa, or even the catastrophe at Stalingrad (though this did produce some 'defeatist comments') but the bombing of Hamburg (where I am currently working). That wasn't until July 1943.
Cheers
Steve

 

[rochie]

Maybe those at Nuremberg instead of defending themselves by saying they were only following orders should of then said we were only voting for Adolf out of protest but were then too lazy to do anything but go along for the ride !

They might have got off with it.

 

[stona]

About 6 million ethnic Germans were forced west of the Oder when East Prussia became Western Poland. Tens, maybe hundreds of thousands perished. Whose fault was that? The Nazis? The Allies? There is no black and white answer. The hundreds or thousands of orphaned German children fending for themselves in the forests of Lithuania in 1946 were forced there by whom? There are no easy or trite answers.

It was, as George Orwell wrote, an enormous crime but though the Nazi regime did bring terrible and unnecessary (through its late war nihilism) destruction to the German people, it does not bear that responsibility alone. It is shared with the German people amongst others. That's really my point.

Steve

 

[Marcel]

Hmmm, it is always easy to judge afterwards, especially now, 70 years later. Back at the time in the '30ies things were not so clear and the nazi's offered great advantages to most people in Germany and other countries. What would you have done at that time, in Germany, not knowing what we know now? Maybe we should not judge that fast.
And like in Germany it was in other countries as well. The difference is that they didn't get as much power in other countries. Here in the Netherlands we had Dutch SS'ers, the NSB as well as Dutch resistance. I'm pretty sure things were the same in Poland, France and other occupied countries as well. I'm pretty sure many warcrimes in the name of the nazi's were committed by Polish people, just like most warcrimes in the Netherlands were performed by Dutch SD agents. And I could have taken any nationality with that last statement.

But after the war, everybody was in the resistance, were they not?

 

[wiking85]

Hmmm, it is always easy to judge afterwards, especially now, 70 years later. Back at the time in the '30ies things were not so clear and the nazi's offered great advantages to most people in Germany and other countries. What would you have done at that time, in Germany, not knowing what we know now? Maybe we should not judge that fast.
And like in Germany it was in other countries as well. The difference is that they didn't get as much power in other countries. Here in the Netherlands we had Dutch SS'ers, the NSB as well as Dutch resistance. I'm pretty sure things were the same in Poland, France and other occupied countries as well. I'm pretty sure many warcrimes in the name of the nazi's were committed by Polish people, just like most warcrimes in the Netherlands were performed by Dutch SD agents. And I could have taken any nationality with that last statement.

But after the war, everybody was in the resistance, were they not?

Actually the Poles were the only nation to have virtually no collaborators, enforced by a death decree by the Home Army:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during_World_War_II#Poland

Unlike in most European countries occupied by Nazi Germany—where the Germans sought and found true collaborators among the locals—in occupied Poland there was no official collaboration either at the political or at the economic level.[66][67] Poland also never officially surrendered to the Germans.[68] Under German occupation, the Polish army continued to fight underground, as Armia Krajowa and forest partisans – Leśni. The Polish resistance movement in World War II in German-occupied Poland was the largest resistance movement in all of occupied Europe.[69] As a result, Polish citizens were unlikely to be given positions of any significant authority.[66][67] The vast majority of the pre-war citizenry collaborating with the Nazis was the German minority in Poland which was offered one of several possible grades of German citizenship.[70]

There is a general consensus among historians that there was very little collaboration with the Nazis among the Polish nation as a whole, compared to other German-occupied countries.[66][67][71] Depending on a definition of collaboration (and of a Polish citizen, based on ethnicity and minority status), scholars estimate number of "Polish collaborators" at around several thousand in a population of about 35 million (that number is supported by the Israeli War Crimes Commission).[72] The estimate is based primarily on the number of death sentences for treason by the Special Courts of the Polish Underground State. Some estimates are higher, counting in all members of the German minority in Poland and any former Polish citizens declaring their German ethnicity (Volksdeutsche), as well as conscripted members of the Blue Police, low-ranking Polish bureaucrats employed in German occupational administration, and even workers in forced labor camps (ex. Zivilarbeiter and Baudienst). Most of the Blue Police were forcibly drafted into service; nevertheless, a significant number acted as spies for Polish resistance movement Armia Krajowa.[71] John Connelly quoted a Polish historian (Leszek Gondek) calling the phenomenon of Polish collaboration "marginal" and wrote that "only relatively small percentage of Polish population engaged in activities that may be described as collaboration when seen against the backdrop of European and world history".[71]

 

[Marcel]

Well recently a couple of publications dismissed that. Needless to say these publications were highly disputed, but having read a couple of books from Dutch prisoners having fled through Poland, I'm inclined to think there really were collaborators in Poland. I think it would be naive to say that any of the occupied countries were free from collaborators. How many there were in Poland compared to other countries, I do not dare to say.
It is a very sensitive subject. I know here in the NL, not many would like to admit the amount of collaboration ding WW2. I can only imagine in Poland it would be the same.

 

[mikewint]

The Poles seem to stand alone in that respect. Unlike in most European countries occupied by Nazi Germany—where the Germans sought and found true collaborators among the locals—in occupied Poland there was no official collaboration either at the political or at the economic level. Poland also never officially surrendered to the Germans. Under German occupation, the Polish army continued to fight underground, as Armia Krajowa and forest partisans – Leśni. The Polish resistance movement in World War II in German-occupied Poland was the largest resistance movement in all of occupied Europe. As a result, Polish citizens were unlikely to be given positions of any significant authority. The vast majority of the pre-war citizenry collaborating with the Nazis was the German minority in Poland which was offered one of several possible grades of German citizenship. In 1939, before the German invasion of Poland, 800,000 people declared themselves as members of the German minority in Poland mostly in Pomerania and Western Silesia. During the war there were about 3 million former Polish citizens of German origin who signed the official list of Volksdeutsche. People who became Volksdeutsche were treated by Poles with special contempt, and the fact of them having signed the Volksliste constituted high treason according to the Polish underground law

 

[GrauGeist]

A question may be asked of everyone in this day and age:
What would YOU do under those circumstances? Would you speak out against the government, knowing that there was a strong chance of a black sedan pulling up at your door at 3 a.m.?

Would you make the best of it, trying to keep the status quo? Would you breathe a sigh of relief when you find out you and your family have the proper religion and/or ancestry that lets you "squeek by" even though your family's friends for several generations were being loaded into the back of a guarded truck.

It happened under an alarming number of governments, called by various labels (Nazis, Communists, Socialists, Fascists, etc) and they people allowed it. Some may say that the people were "powerless" to stop it, but this has been proven wrong on several cases, such as Romania overthrowing (eventually) Ceaușescu's regime, or the Italians (eventually) ousting Mussolini, Poland eventually shaking off Soviet rule, and so on.

In the meantime though, what does a person do? Some want to survive and will do what eveer it takes...many collaborators thought there was no way out, that the occupiers were there to stay.

It seems to me that the best policy for current book authors, is to stick with actual records and first-person interviews to keep in contact with the darkness and misery that was to be had in those times, instead of publishing their opinions offered under the disguise as fact.

 

[mikewint]

Dave, excellent post, excellent post. At 19 I was strongly anti-Vietnam War. Several of my friends at school had burned their draft cards and then left for Canada. Maybe one or two had stood their ground, said NO, and ended in Federal Prison. When my 2S was cancelled and Uncle said "Boy we need You" I thought long and hard and decided I was too pretty for Federal Prison besides I could become a Medic and we all know Medics don't fight or get shot at, right, we're the good guys. So beautiful Vietnam and I had a date. Helluva thing! They didn't want me there and I didn't want to be there...we were in perfect agreement.
Lots of US ultra-right winger state the old bumper sticker "If you want my gun you'll have to pry it from my cold dead hand". The Molon Labe stand. But when two Cobra gun-ships hover and four APCs and an Abrams pull up Watcha Gonna Do.

 

[pbehn]

But after the war, everybody was in the resistance, were they not?

Except for the young women who were beaten shaved stripped and paraded for consorting with the people their elders had accepted into their country.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

A question may be asked of everyone in this day and age:
What would YOU do under those circumstances? Would you speak out against the government, knowing that there was a strong chance of a black sedan pulling up at your door at 3 a.m.?

Would you make the best of it, trying to keep the status quo? Would you breathe a sigh of relief when you find out you and your family have the proper religion and/or ancestry that lets you "squeek by" even though your family's friends for several generations were being loaded into the back of a guarded truck.

It happened under an alarming number of governments, called by various labels (Nazis, Communists, Socialists, Fascists, etc) and they people allowed it. Some may say that the people were "powerless" to stop it, but this has been proven wrong on several cases, such as Romania overthrowing (eventually) Ceaușescu's regime, or the Italians (eventually) ousting Mussolini, Poland eventually shaking off Soviet rule, and so on.

In the meantime though, what does a person do? Some want to survive and will do what eveer it takes...many collaborators thought there was no way out, that the occupiers were there to stay.

It seems to me that the best policy for current book authors, is to stick with actual records and first-person interviews to keep in contact with the darkness and misery that was to be had in those times, instead of publishing their opinions offered under the disguise as fact.

Agreed. It is very easy 70+ years later to sit behind a safe computer and say they would do differently. Hind site is always 20/20.

 

[Marcel]

Except for the young women who were beaten shaved stripped and paraded for consorting with the people their elders had accepted into their country.

True, one of the most shamefull episodes in the history of my country. But it illustrates what I want to say. Those people who did this usually were mostly not people from the resistance.

Another example. Of my two grandfathers, one was with the Northernlight group, a communist resistance group in Groningen. He barely escaped the war with his life. My other grandfather had a bicycle shop and sold to Germans and repaired their bikes. But guess who was the loudest after the war....

 

[meatloaf109]

I have stated this before, my paternal grandmother was an "American bundist". She died a nazi apologist. I remember as a child about 8 or 9 years old watching the "World at War" episode that dealt with the death camps. She was standing behind me and said, "Ach, no one remembers the good things he (Hitler) did!" I am pretty sure that the only reason she wasn't deported at the end of the war, (other than money, and they had a bunch...) was that my father was a WW2 navy veteran who fought to keep her here. She was a mean, hard old woman. I was written out of her will for marrying my first wife, a jewish girl. I was written out of my parents will because I am an Atheist. Go figure....
I am a proud German-American with no illusions of the past, only hopes for the future.

 

[stona]

The vast majority of the pre-war citizenry collaborating with the Nazis was the German minority in Poland which was offered one of several possible grades of German citizenship. In 1939, before the German invasion of Poland, 800,000 people declared themselves as members of the German minority in Poland mostly in Pomerania and Western Silesia. During the war there were about 3 million former Polish citizens of German origin who signed the official list of Volksdeutsche. People who became Volksdeutsche were treated by Poles with special contempt, and the fact of them having signed the Volksliste constituted high treason according to the Polish underground law

More than contempt. After the war they were abused and suffered a fate similar to that the Germans had inflicted on many Poles. They were dispossessed, summarily executed, beaten to death, put into camps, starved and worked to death. There were even a couple of that old standby the 'death march'. Eventually the survivors, along with millions of others from other areas of Europe found their way to Germany. It is one of the great catastrophes of modern history, but most are unaware that it even happened. It was ethnic cleansing on a huge scale, nothing since has come close.
It has been estimated that between 20% and 25% of the current German population is descended from 'ethnic' Germans who lived in areas outside modern day, unified, Germany and outside the larger Third Reich.
Cheers
Steve

 

[pbehn]

True, one of the most shamefull episodes in the history of my country. But it illustrates what I want to say. Those people who did this usually were mostly not people from the resistance.

Another example. Of my two grandfathers, one was with the Northernlight group, a communist resistance group in Groningen. He barely escaped the war with his life. My other grandfather had a bicycle shop and sold to Germans and repaired their bikes. But guess who was the loudest after the war....

I wasnt thinking about the Netherlands (or any country) in particular. It is easy to judge that a collaborator deserves what they get but the best spies and resistance workers live very close to the enemy.
Many British spies were decorated by the Nazis and so you could say they deserve execution as traitors if their other activities were not known, the local peasants in a village obviously wouldnt know otherwise the nazis would too.

The lives of Eddie Chapman and Dagmar Lahlum illustrate this perfectly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddie_Chapman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagmar_Lahlum


Any Dutchman with a bicycle shop would be angry in 1945 suddenly living in a land with no bicycles.

 

[Capt. Vick]

I have to say this is an incredibly eye opening discussion, with many points of view that I had not considered. Not at all black and white as I suspected.

 

[GrauGeist]

I have to say this is an incredibly eye opening discussion, with many points of view that I had not considered. Not at all black and white as I suspected.

It's actually a very complex situation.

On the part of the collaborators, many just assume they were azzholes but no one really knows why they were "traitors". Were they just rotten a-holes or natural cowards? Did they have a family to feed? Was their family in peril if they didn't co-operate? Perhaps fortune-seekers wanting to be on the "high-side" when the dust settled?

It's hard to say...we don't know what was going on in their heads let alone what was going on in their lifes...we just see a general picture and drop them all into one group.

Some of you may recall me mentioning that many years ago, I worked with a former SS panzergrenadier. I asked him point blank why the hell he would want to join the SS. His reply was interesting: He was six foot six, blone hair and blue eyed and it was suggested he join the SS even though he wanted to join the Kreigsmarine. When he declined the "suggestion", it became more of a "strong invitation". When he realized it was not a good idea to refuse, especially since his father was a prominent businessman, he "joined".

Or perhaps this example: in Bulgairia, my Fiancee's Grandfather was a critic of the Communists. He had served under the Tsar and remained loyal to the crown. His critisism earned him beatings that ranged from a "roughing up" to severe, requiring a hospital stay. Eventually, they got him to be quiet when they made trouble with my Fiancee and her brother when they were children. Things like being forced to be last in the lunch line, exclusion from youth activities, and even being harrassed between school and home (down to even having a sedan follow them slowly as they walked wherever). He is fortunate that he was very well liked in his town and many people were keeping an eye on events...otherwise he may have gone the way of countless other people...

 

[michaelmaltby]

Overlooked in this discussion was that National Socialism and Nazis celebration of German "blood" was culturally highly seductive to the German people ... the state created great pop imagery, like this version of the universal Nazis theme song ... The Horst Wessel Song ... and it had an agreed enemy ... the brawling Communists.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pinxdGZe5aY

 

[stona]

... The Horst Wessel Song ...

Often described as 'Germany's second national anthem' at that time. Everyone knew it by heart.

Steve

 

[yulzari]

Trivia:

Horst Wessel. A song about a dead pimp set to a fine German naval tune.

Deutchland Uber Alles was composed on British soil (Heligoland). The poor Heligolanders had their loyalty to Britain rewarded by being given away to Germany for Zanzibar and then large portions of their island blown up by Britain after the war.

A secret policeman of Stalins time commented that, when they picked up their victims off the street, none called out to passers by for help. "We had nothing to show that we had authority" he said. "If the passing public had sided with the suspects we would have had to go away. But they never did. They turned their eyes aside and walked on glad that it was not them and the victims followed us like sheep".